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Thread: Point of curiosity: requiring CCW for FTF sales?

  1. #1
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    Point of curiosity: requiring CCW for FTF sales?

    Hi!

    I notice that many of the private sellers who are selling handguns in my state (WA -- to which I am newly re-arrived) specify that they'll sell only to buyers who can show a CPL. (Perhaps longarms, too, I just haven't tried to sort and check those ads for this tendency.)

    Since I'm both interested in perusing the ads (something's got to interfere with my attempts at thrift, after all, and guns at least keep their value, generally speaking) and have just applied for my CPL (which will take a while to go through and reach me, even with all my fingers crossed), I am curious about this. Is it just because that provides the seller some confidence that he's not sellin' to a felon?

    Since most ads do *not* specify this, I certainly hope it's not a legal requirement, but if it were I'd be pretty upset that my googling doesn't reveal such a thing I'm sure that the sellers who specify this feel pretty strongly, since they're forgoing a large number of potential buyers.

    Are there states where (handgun, or any gun) sales are allowed to CCW holders without FFL involvement, but otherwise must go through an FFL?

    (If you are one of these sellers, I'd appreciate an explanation of your reasoning for doing this. I can easily imagine wanting to use the proxy of a state background check if it were me selling a gun, but I wonder if there's some other aspect that I'm just missing.)

    timothy

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    For me it does two things. It tells me that the buyer is a resident of my state. DL does the same but tells me nothing about the character and criminal record of the buyer. Carry permit tells me about all of those things.
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    FTF sales can be a real pain. A seller to an unknown party can be held responsible if he sells that gun to a known bad guy. I have several customers who will bring the buyer to my shop and have me transfer that gun for them. That way the seller is released from the liability, and the gun is now officially in the possesion of the buyer. The NICS assures the buyer is a good guy, at least on paper. If you run across a seller who wants to see the CCW, ask them to meet you at a local FFL and do the transfer there. Cost is minimal, the reassurance is priceless.
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
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    If you require a "License to Carry Concealed Pistol" and a "Washington State Drivers License" to verify they are in fact the holder of the license, and ask the question "Are there any laws prohibiting the transfer of this firearm to you" meaning the person you are selling the firearm to, and they answer "No", I have been told that you have taken the legally reasonable steps to protect yourself. If they answer "Yes" DO NOT PROCEED. You should then write the license numbers and address of the person you are selling the firearm to, along with the serial number of said firearm down and keep these in a secure place to protect yourself in the future.

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    Smile

    IMO, Grizz44 and Maniac have given sound person-to-person advice.

    FTF sales, are generally legal between individuals; However, a number of legislative provisions limits that general principle. For example, federal provisions under 18 USC 922, state legislative restrictions, county, municipality/town restrictions.

    Requiring a CCW permit for a FTF transaction is self-imposed by sellers, generally, except insofar as a state/county/municpality/town requires such or something resembling it (FFL to FFL transfer and attendant background check), or more. A CCW permit may be used, in some states, in lieu of a background check. A CCW permit is current proof of not being a prohibited person, notwithstanding adjudged bad behavior since the time of issuance.

    In addition, 'Self-imposing' this requirement could speak to a seller's reasonable inquiry into whether or not a potential transferee is prohibited from possessing a firearm, one fact pertinent to a court, if greater powers demand it, i.e., prosecution under federal, state, or local law, if it gets to that point.

    I think someone from WA or your county, or one more knowledgeable on Washington state law could give you more specific advice about any prohibitions you should be aware of before making a transfer. For example, a county may require some form of 'registration' of handguns, independent of laws regarding prohibitive transfers, as a prerequisite to any sale.

    None of the aforementioned is to be taken as legal advice. Someone friendly probably will arrive shortly to point you to a link to a .gov site which may help with state particulars.

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    In the state of Colorado private sales of guns ( except at a gunshow, thank you John McCain) are unregulated, I am not required to do a background check I am not required to check a DL.

    It bothers me to see people pay lip service to the second amendment and then turn around and "self impose" a bunch of restrictions on someone who wants to buy a firearm from them. Either you complied W/ the law or you didn't.

    If I sell a gun that gets used in a crime and the police track it back to me (doubtful given that the majority of my guns are off paper) I tell them I sold the gun in compliance w/ Colorado law and if they have any further questions regarding the sale they're more than welcome to speak to my attorney.

    IMHO requiring a CHP for a private sale is a Fudd trick and shows fear of the police.
    Last edited by Treo; November 11th, 2008 at 12:25 PM.
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    I agree with Treo.

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    I also agree with Treo. Except for a few states (including mine, unfortunately), face-to-face sales only require by law that you not transfer a firearm to someone you know or reasonably believe to be ineligible. The law doesn't specifiy what steps you have to take to determine that. If you meet a buyer in a Wal-Mart parking lot, ask him if he's legal and he says, "Yes," you've done all the law requires.

    Asking for a drivers license or a CCW is a way to cover your butt, but it also makes it difficult for those who want to lawfully obtain a firearm "off paper." And since my view of the 2nd Amendment is that NO firearm transaction should be subject to "paper," by insisting on licenses and permits and names and addresses and receipts you are just as bad as the authorities who create bureaucratic paper trails.

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    I've done a few FTF sales here in VA. A couple have shown me their CHL and it just makes me feel better about the transaction, regardless of what the law states.
    There are two kinds of people in the world: (1) the free; and (2) food animals.

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    it just makes me feel better about the transaction
    If you don't "feel good" about the transaction why are you selling the gun?
    It is your dissatisfaction with what IS that is the source of all of your unhappiness. Matthew Scudder

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    http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/wa_2...rmsLawsPub.pdf

    See: N.C.G.S. 14-402(a)

    In North Carolina, the law states that private transfers of handguns require the purchaser to present a "Permit To Acquire A Weapon" issued by the Sheriff in which the purchaser resides, or a North Carolina Concealed handgun Permit (may be used in lieu of NICS at an FFL).

    The seller will retain the permit or should note the CHP number (sames as Driver License Number) for his own records.
    N.C.G.S. 14-402(a)

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    Talking

    In all of my numerous FTF firearm transactions, I required nothing more than the appropriate amount of legal tender, and offered the same.

    ...and if I didn't know you prior to the transaction,
    I certainly wouldn't after.

    Think about it like selling a hammer.

    That is called obeying the law, at least locally.

    I follow the law.
    Except some traffic laws, of course.
    p

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    A well-balanced thread, but here's a link to legislation in the OP's state of Washington, so he has more information at his disposal. Good luck, BTW, on getting that permit

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41

    It's for the OP to decide how to proceed in a vendor/vendee situation, as there are both legal AND moral/ethical implications to contend with as a responsible citizen (not necessarily always, though, with reason, sometimes, congruent). Please take note that Washington legislators, past and present, do not agree that a firearm is like any other object in commerce (e.g., prohibition on use of firearm as security for a loan).

    Yes, we have quite enough legislation. Here. Today. Already.

  14. #14
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    My qualm is that you have to be 21 to get a CCW(at least in FL), which IMO is a problem in its self. If sellers want to require one then that's their prerogative, but just keep in mind that 18, 19 , and 20 y/os can only buy through personal sales and no matter how great of a person they are they can't get a CCW.

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    I often wonder how our responses would read if we were to replace the word "handgun" with oh, say, "dynamite". If I am legally in possession of "dynamite" and wish to sell it, I am probably going to require that the buyer is legally qualified to buy it. This is a big gray area for me in that I am generally against gun control for the law abiding, but am for keeping guns out of the hands of felons and other undesirables (i.e. mentally incompetent buyers).

    If I sell to someone, I'd like to be confident that the gun I am selling isn't going to be in a property vault the next month with a bunch of people wondering where the "perp" acquired it. Sooner or later they'll find out, and I'd like to show at least an effort at due diligence when they haul me in for questioning.

    Sure, face to face sales have little regulation, but I am inclined to at least have the identity of my buyer when making the transaction.

    Of course, I've been wrong before...
    Mal Reynolds is my hero.

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    I'm not too keen on the 'dynamite' analogy. Such a comparison would undermine the justifications for effective personal self-defense, already recognized by the SCOTUS in the Heller decision.

    After all, even common law tort theory recognizes the 'distance' between 'dynamite' (inherently dangerous/destructive devices and strict liability) and handguns (negligence); In the balance, I don't think one will find anyone arguing that a stick of dynamite could prevent the commission of a violent felony.

    How 'bout we replace 'handgun' with 'sharp, pointy stick'? I like that analogy better ....

  17. #17
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    In the state of Colorado private sales of guns ( except at a gunshow, thank you John McCain)
    What did McCain do in CO to regulate private sales at gunshows?
    He certainly didn't affect any private sales here in MT.
    "The world needs to be reminded that all human ills are not curable by legislation, and that quantity of statutory enactment and excess of government offer no substitute for quality of citizenship."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaney
    I often wonder how our responses would read if we were to replace the word "handgun" with oh, say, "dynamite". If I am legally in possession of "dynamite" and wish to sell it, I am probably going to require that the buyer is legally qualified to buy it.
    Why not replace the word "handgun" with "spaghetti noodles"? There may be some obscure law on the books against illegal trafficking of pasta across county lines without paying tariffs.

    Does that make it wrong to sell your spaghetti noodles?
    Semper Fi

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    I'd feel better about the sale if the buyer can show me some form of "I'm Not A Felon Card".......
    "If it looks like a rabbit, and acts like a rabbit, it will be treated as such- prey for all predators.
    If it looks like a rabbit and bites like a rattlesnake, rabbits will be safer, and predators more reticent."

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    I'd feel better about the sale if the buyer can show me some form of "I'm Not A Felon Card"....
    I havent sold any but I think i would put must have CCW in mine. I think that alone would keep 99% of the ones who you legally couldnt sale to away.

  21. #21
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    Treo states
    IMHO requiring a CHP for a private sale is a Fudd trick and shows fear of the police.
    Bah. "Fudd trick?" Get real. For those of us that participate in face-to-face private sales in Washington state (focal point of OP's question as he remarked "I notice that many of the private sellers who are selling handguns in my state (WA -- to which I am newly re-arrived) specify that they'll sell only to buyers who can show a CPL."), we ask this to easily ensure that we are selling to only those eligible to buy firearms. "Self-imposed" requirement? Of course. I, and most everyone else I know who engage in private sales and purchases desire to make legal firearms transactions, and asking to see someone's certified good-guy card is simply the most logical and easiest was to do so ...

    "Fear of the police?" Sheesh. Whatever. I've yet to met the prospective buyer who is offended by my asking to see their CPL, nor does anyone I know in Washington state who requires same do so out of fear of the police.
    Will

    Everything I know about cops, their respect for the citizens of this country and its Constitution, as well as the state of policing in this country ... I learned from the Internet.

  22. #22
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    "It bothers me to see people pay lip service to the second amendment and then turn around and "self impose" a bunch of restrictions on someone who wants to buy a firearm from them."

    The 2nd Amendment says they have a right to possess a gun, not that I am required to sell them one. I comply with the gun laws because it's the smart thing to do, but I reserve the right to trust my own judgement after meeting the person.

    John

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    I'm not too keen on the 'dynamite' analogy. Such a comparison would undermine the justifications for effective personal self-defense, already recognized by the SCOTUS in the Heller decision.

    After all, even common law tort theory recognizes the 'distance' between 'dynamite' (inherently dangerous/destructive devices and strict liability) and handguns (negligence); In the balance, I don't think one will find anyone arguing that a stick of dynamite could prevent the commission of a violent felony.

    How 'bout we replace 'handgun' with 'sharp, pointy stick'? I like that analogy better ....
    Why not replace the word "handgun" with "spaghetti noodles"? There may be some obscure law on the books against illegal trafficking of pasta across county lines without paying tariffs.

    Does that make it wrong to sell your spaghetti noodles?
    Sorry guys. Too many beers for deep thinking last night. I was responding to the original point as I percieved it. "

    (If you are one of these sellers, I'd appreciate an explanation of your reasoning for doing this. I can easily imagine wanting to use the proxy of a state background check if it were me selling a gun, but I wonder if there's some other aspect that I'm just missing.)
    Mal Reynolds is my hero.

  24. #24
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    When Fudds Attack

    Old Dog sez,
    Bah. "Fudd trick?" Get real. For those of us that participate in face-to-face private sales in Washington (EDITED)we ask this to easily ensure that we are selling to only those eligible to buy firearms.
    Gee, that sounds familiar I've heard that before, oh yeah isn’t that the Brady Bunch’s primary reason for wanting to ban all private firearm sales? Neither Colorado nor Washington requires a background check before selling a firearm in a private sale. Why add an unnecessary restriction to the law? You either sold the firearm legally or you didn’t. If the police want to ask you questions about a gun you sold send them to your lawyer.


    Old Dog sez,
    I, and most everyone else I know who engage in private sales and purchases desire to make legal firearms transactions, and asking to see someone's certified good-guy card is simply the most logical and easiest was to do so ...
    Now that sounds like a common sense restriction if I ever heard one Bravo! BTW Old Dog I have a CHP does that make me a “certified good guy”?Does my CHP cancel out my "radical" anti police state views? Would you sell to me? What if I threw in a box of Krispy Kremes?
    It is your dissatisfaction with what IS that is the source of all of your unhappiness. Matthew Scudder

  25. #25
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    "You either sold the firearm legally or you didn’t."

    A few years ago a friend advertised a Glock in the weekly Trading Post. Some guy called him at 3 a.m. on a week night. Would you have sold him the gun, even if it was a legal transaction? My friend didn't care, or even ask, if the guy was legal or not because he wasn't going to bother with someone showing such poor judgement.

    The law is not the final word on who you transact business with. It's the minimum that's required.

    John

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