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Thread: Shooting Revives Concealed Carry Controversy

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    Shooting Revives Concealed Carry Controversy

    Shooting Revives Concealed Carry Controversy

    For a previous thread on this debate at James Madison University see this thread.

    Shooting Revives Concealed Carry Controversy

    November 13, 2008 • By Katie Thisdell, The Breeze

    After last weekend’s off-campus shooting, students are reacting to the presence of guns in the college community. While some people believe guns are a threat, others support their protective role.

    Senior Danny Dales is the campus leader for the unofficial chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. The SCCC advocates legal adults over the age of 21 with permits to carry concealed handguns on campuses for personal protection from all types of violent crime. With 70 students interested in the group, he hopes it will be a recognized organization in the spring.

    “The overall reaction of our organization is this is just another example of why we feel we deserve the right to personal protection,” Dales, a biology major, said in response to the shooting.

    In Hunters Ridge early Sunday morning, only the perpetrators were known to have shot a gun. However, SCCC believes the incident may have been different if more weapons had been used. Concealed weapons are allowed in off-campus areas, but the topic is touchy.

    “Wouldn’t the violence have just been escalated?” said senior Loretta Vitt, a psychology major. “I don’t see how concealed weapons or more weapons could have helped this situation, but only made it far worse. More people could have been caught in the crossfire for sure.”

    Dales, on the other hand, believes that concealed weapons are the key to guaranteeing safety.

    “One cannot say whether or not an armed citizen could have prevented this incident,” Dales said. “But a citizen is severely disadvantaged when their right to personal protection is revoked, as it is on most public universities across the country.”

    Dales believes more students might express interest in the SCCC after this incident.

    “If this type of violence were to migrate onto the campus of JMU, we would like to see those students who legally acquire a permit to exercise their right for personal protection,” Dales said.

    In Rockingham County, 728 people applied for concealed weapons permits between January and October, according to the Office of the Clerk of Court. They have seen the number of applications rise in recent months compared to past years.

    There are no records for how many students specifically are registered, though, because they apply based on their permanent residence.

    Senior Barbie Spitz, a sociology major, hopes that concealed weapons are never permitted on campus. She described JMU as a safe community where students go to classes to learn. She said guns could make students uneasy and disrupt the environment.

    “If you don’t know who is carrying a gun around, then you don’t know if it’s that person who gave you a funny look walking down the Village hill,” Spitz said. “That’s really scary. I think it would put a lot of people on edge.”

    Though the SCCC supports concealed weapons as a defense to an attack, many students believe that they would not be limited to such a situation.

    Vitt doesn’t want to take these risks. She said she doesn’t believe in guns. She cited more deaths in homes from accidental shootings than from situations of domestic violence or self-defense.

    “Limiting the use of guns in everyday environments is just common sense,” Vitt said.

    Spitz said: “Guns don’t keep the safety. They kill people.”

    Contact Katie Thisdell at thisdeke@jmu.edu
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    So that others don't have to look it up, JMU (James Madison University) is in Harrisonburg, VA.
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    Thanks Henry
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    I note the psych and sociology majors were quoted as not wanting guns on campus.

    It's ironic, because neither field has made a dent in preventing criminal behavior. It's become increasingly apparent they have completely failed over the last 50 years to be any significant help.

    It's even become the hot button topic for campus shootings that when police intervention is needed, the subject was known to counselors beforehand, and nothing was done to really help.

    Obviously there is a major flaw in effecting a correct diagnosis and furthering a positive prognosis. In other words, the counselors have pretty much dropped the ball.

    Which opens a whole new area of liability for legal researchers to work on, at $300 a billable hour.

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    What always astounds me is the assumption that someone willing to assault, rape, or murder isn't willing to violate the carry laws (or in this case, campus regulation).

    Out of curiosity, I took various holsters and stuffed them with non-gun things (cell phones, electric razors, etc) to see if I could go to my grad school classes without anyone noticing. Answer: yes. I have no doubt that an AR-15 could easily be smuggled in under a coat or in a large backpack if broken down. Heck, if you wrap a gun in a garbage bag, walk in with some poster board and a clear bag of markers then I can almost guarantee no one would be suspicious. If the administration would let me, I'd love to stage a demonstration where I walk in and then unpack something like a dozen firearms including EBRs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirod
    I note the psych and sociology majors were quoted as not wanting guns on campus.
    I'm a psychology major, and I take offense to that statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirod
    It's ironic, because neither field has made a dent in preventing criminal behavior. It's become increasingly apparent they have completely failed over the last 50 years to be any significant help.
    It's also ironic (not really) that neither psychology nor sociology aims to prevent criminal behavior.

    Psychology is the study of behavior and the mind; it is the study of the self and the individual. Sociology is similar, but studies the group made up of individuals.

    It is not criminology. Blaming liberal arts fields for not preventing criminal behavior is as bigoted as blaming guns for causing crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirod
    It's even become the hot button topic for campus shootings that when police intervention is needed, the subject was known to counselors beforehand, and nothing was done to really help.
    School shootings are the fault of the shooters. Should the counselors have done more? Absolutely, but to hold them directly accountable is asinine.

    We do live in a society where mental illness is taboo. Not going against the norm isn't something someone should be penalized for. There's a reason societal norms exist.

    We could devolve this discussion into idealistic theory, but then we'd be the same as the Brady bunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirod
    Obviously there is a major flaw in effecting a correct diagnosis and furthering a positive prognosis. In other words, the counselors have pretty much dropped the ball.
    I disagree. I don't hold the counselors responsible. Everyone even remotely involved could have done more, but then again, hindsight is always 20/20. Focusing on what could have been done better or more efficiently is time wasted; focus on the problem and its possible solutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirod
    Which opens a whole new area of liability for legal researchers to work on, at $300 a billable hour.
    Yeah, they haven't done much to stop criminal behavior, either, but I didn't see you blaming them.

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    Cracks me up, these anti-gun-campus people only want the right to call the police when a gunman opens fire on people. Of course the police show up w/ guns to confront the gunman.
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    “Wouldn’t the violence have just been escalated?” said senior Loretta Vitt, a psychology major.
    This brings to mind one of my favorite quotes by Jeff Cooper:

    “One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.”

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    Cracks me up, these anti-gun-campus people only want the right to call the police when a gunman opens fire on people. Of course the police show up w/ guns to confront the gunman.
    Somebody just commented the same on the Breeze's page, was that you Eyesac? It sure caused somebody else to have a hissy fit.

    http://breezejmu.org/2008/11/13/shoo...y-controversy/
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    “Wouldn’t the violence have just been escalated?” said senior Loretta Vitt, a psychology major.
    YES, but in the other direction!

    To paraphrase Mr. Cooper.

    Somebody just commented the same on the Breeze's page, was that you Eyesac? It sure caused somebody else to have a hissy fit.
    I just responded in kind to the hissy fitter. My thanks to jpruitt for the use of his Jeff Cooper quote!

    Here's what I said in case it doesn't pass moderation there.


    Dr. Billy, you’re COMPLETELY WRONG in this case. In a dangerous situation with guns involved, POLICE will always be the first to clear the scene. There are many instances where EMT won’t, or are prevented from treating victims if they themselves would be in danger.

    Second, NO amount of gun control laws will prevent this type of occurrence. A criminal will do what they want. What if the shooter HADN’T left, but started picking off more students as in Virginia Tech? A LEGAL concealed weapons holder could have prevented further loss of life. Would you rather be “caught in the crossfire” with a chance, or at the mercy of a lone madman with a gun? If you don’t want to touch weapons, fine, just don’t take away my right to self defense!

    “Wouldn’t the violence have just been escalated?” said senior Loretta Vitt, a psychology major. (in reference to more guns being present)

    This brings to mind one of my favorite quotes by Jeff Cooper:

    “One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.”

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    Vitt doesn’t want to take these risks. She said she doesn’t believe in guns.
    Madam, I can assure you that guns do exist.


    “I don’t see how concealed weapons or more weapons could have helped this situation, but only made it far worse. More people could have been caught in the crossfire for sure.”
    More people "could" be mugged, more people "could" be shot at, innocent people "could" be killed,, for sure.
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    I finally posted after some thought (and revisions in Word) regarding what I thought and wanted to say. Tried to avoid getting dragged off topic by that guy who went nutz.

    Oh and nice reply Rustynuts, they did post it. As I've said previously, the Breeze does seem to be at least trying to let all sides be presented.
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    She said she doesn’t believe in guns.
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    Perhaps I'm the only one who thought of the "joke names" vignette in "Life of Brian" when I read "Barbie Spitz."

    Anyone with college student friends, especially ones with Barbie's attitude, see if you can talk them into a non-threatening hour at the range with a Ruger 22/45 and all the ammo they care to shoot. Load the mags for them, and keep 'em coming. Provide plugs and muffs, and place the targets close enough to reward a modicum of care in aiming.

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    “Wouldn’t the violence have just been escalated?” said senior Loretta Vitt, a psychology major.
    Er, isn't that the whole idea? Escalate the violence on the SOBs who started the shooting? So either they will be killed, or at least be made reluctant to do it again?

    I guess not much thought goes on in college.

  16. #16
    I guess not much thought goes on in college.
    As a soon to be college grad, I can assure that you're more right than you probably want to be.

    I can't even begin to describe to you the smug, asinine things I've heard after the election..

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    I guess it's better to sit there like cattle waiting to be slaughtered, because that's "less violent." Heck, it can be downright orderly if you cooperate enough.
    "Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place." - Frederic Bastiat, The Law

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