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Thread: Man Brings Chair to Gunfight:Shot to Death By Police in New York City

  1. #1
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    Man Brings Chair to Gunfight:Shot to Death By Police in New York City

    Sorta reminds me of Indy and the big Egyptian in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
    Only in NYC.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/14/ny...l?ref=nyregion

    The New York Times

    November 14, 2008
    Man Who Tried to Hit Officer With a Chair Is Shot to Death
    By CHRISTINE HAUSER and AL BAKER

    A man who charged at a police officer with a wooden folding chair in a church parking lot in Coney Island was shot to death on Thursday afternoon by the officer, the authorities said.

    The police said they had not identified the man as of Thursday evening, saying only that he appeared to be in his 20s. He had been seen trying to break into a van in the parking lot of Coney Island Gospel Assembly Church at 2828 Neptune Avenue, between West 28th and West 29th Streets, shortly before 1 p.m., the police said.

    The officer, Dawn Ortiz, 33, and her partner were in the basement of a truancy center at the church when a custodian told them about the attempted break-in.

    When the officers went to investigate, the man came after one of the officers with the folding chair, the police said. He was ordered in Spanish and English to stop and drop the chair, the police said. He kept moving toward Officer Ortiz and was poised to strike her with the chair when she shot him, the police said.

    “He continues to disregard her, and he advances to within a foot of her,” said Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s chief spokesman. “He disregards her directives, and she fires once and hits him in the chest.”

    The man was taken to Coney Island Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

    Officer Ortiz, who joined the department in 1999, was placed on administrative duty after the shooting. It is a standard move for any officer involved in a shooting. After the shooting, she was taken to Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn, where she was treated for trauma, the police said.

    Mr. Browne declined to say whether preliminary findings indicated that the shooting was within department guidelines, which permit the use of deadly physical force when there is an immediate risk of death or serious injury to a police officer or someone else. Mr. Browne said that an investigation was continuing and that the department expected to have more details on Friday.

    Officer Ortiz, who works for the Housing Bureau, was on assignment on Thursday at the truancy center, where students who are picked up by the police for truancy are held until school officials can arrange their return to school or to their homes.

  2. #2
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    Why on earth did she let him get to within a foot of her before shooting?

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    she was taken to Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn, where she was treated for trauma
    Trauma?

    I think we could nit-pick and wonder if this guy could have been neutralized by some other method than a center-punch.

    But, if I grab a chair--as if I think I'm some professional wrestler--and then rush a cop, I know what's coming next. So should have this guy.

    He kept moving toward Officer Ortiz and was poised to strike her
    As presented, seems like this one is well within the guidelines that LEOs do and should have.

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    If you're gonna yank the tiger by the tail ya gotta expect the tiger to turn around and bite you, especially if the tiger is armed and has a badge on his chest.
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    I imagine that there is more to this story. What trauma did Officer Ortiz endure? Hopefully, she is cleared and allowed to go back to regular duty.

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    Good shoot by officer Ortiz, those choirboys are dangerous

  7. #7
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    Why on earth did she let him get to within a foot of her before shooting?
    Officer Ortiz, who works for the Housing Bureau, was on assignment on Thursday at the truancy center, where students who are picked up by the police for truancy are held until school officials can arrange their return to school or to their homes.
    He got so close because, though she's had the same same training as other police officers, her experience is with surly teens, not crazies with chair bludgeons. The report also doesn't specifically state that she was sent to the hospital for physical trauma, even if it is implied.
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    Based on the limited facts given, this shoot sounds legally justified - though obviously far from desirable.

    Probably would have been a good use of a taser if one had been available.

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    I've got to believe that if the headline was, "Citizen shoots chair wielding man", that said citizen would be locked up and fighting for his freedom.

    I'm keying here on that fact that there are 2 officers on scene. Yes, officer #1 might take a hit, but the perp can't stab, slice or shoot with a chair. 2 officers properly equipped (baton, OC, taser) and trained should be able to handle this without deadly force.

    Let the flaming begin. I'm sure I'll be accused of being anti-LEO, which I'm not. I just know that if I had shot someone assaulting me with a lawn chair that I'd be looking at serious time.
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  10. #10
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    It was speculated way back when all physical requirements for being a police officer were removed to provide equal opportunity employment that we would have more instances of 110 pound females shooting folks dead where 225 pound males would either be able to subdue or wouldn't be charged to begin with because of size.

    That said, not sure what she could have done, sounds like a "good shoot".

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    One less trustee on the taxpayer's dime. Thank you officer.

  12. #12
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    Why on earth did she let him get to within a foot of her before shooting?
    Probably due to the fact that she is not an internet tough guy, and therefore avoided using deadly force as long as possible.
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    I don't think she did ANYTHING wrong. He had a weapon and was coming towards her. He was warned to stop multiple times and did not. A weapon is a weapon and he could have killed her with a well placed shot to the head just as easily as a 225lb male officer. All it takes is one lucky shot and an officer is dead. Any individual that would go after someone with a chair when the other person has a gun is not stable imho so therefore they are very dangerous.

    I have no love loss for the police but a criminals life is definately not worth as much as an officers. The "trauma" she probably went to the hospital for was probably because of the fact she just killed someone. I have never had to do it but I imagine it would cause me a great deal of distress or at least hope it would.
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    I just know that if I had shot someone assaulting me with a lawn chair that I'd be looking at serious time.
    Unfortunately I think you're right that a non-LEO probably would have been arrested and quite possibly charged with a serious crime over the same facts. However, that doesn't change whether it was a rightful or wrongful shoot, and I sincerely hope that a non-LEO taking the same action would either not have been charged or have been acquitted. I expect that would depend a lot on the jurisdiction in which it all happened.

  15. #15
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    More officers are being injured or worse because of hesitation. And the source of this hesitation (in my opinion) is the ever growing OP's generated by lawsuits and media bleeting (without same visibility of retraction when media is proved to be wrong by the facts).

    Oh ... BTW ... there is a very good chance that a wooden folding chair could/can bash a persons skull in from just one blow.

    NY City and an armed citizen shooting a chair wielding nut job ... nice scenario except for the common citizen ... that (legal gun carry) is not allowed (chairs, I think are OK) and they would have gun charges to deal with regardless of the self defense aspect. Thanks to the succession of "Bloomberg" like" leaders NYC has suffered under.
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    Okay, same situation only this time it is one of us hairy chested civilians. 30 years ago I would have done my level best to talk the guy down, failing that I would have endeavored to take the chair from him and slip into a region where the sun doesn't shine. If it happens today I would try and talk the guy down and then I would use whatever means I had available to me to put him down like I would a mad dog. The only rule in a street fight is there are no rules. Since I live in one of 2 non-CCW states it would be anything I could get my hands on because I'm in no shape to wrestle anybody anymore.

    If it was one of my sisters who barely got acquainted with 5' I would expect them to do as I taught them, don't stop pulling the trigger till the boogerman stops twitching or the gun is empty.

    That guy was lucky he was facing a cop, he had a chance to stop. I wasn't there and neither were any of us. Assuming the police woman wasn't an Amazon or a black belt in 5 martial arts she shouldn't have let him get within throwing range of her let alone clubbing range. In my opinion, good shoot but she should have shot quicker, she is lucky she is alive today. As far as tasers, stun guns, mace or any type of baton. It didn't say whether or not she was in uniform or wearing a fully equipped duty belt. She was working with kids, not working the streets.
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    There were two of them. If they had worked at it they probably could have avoided him and grabbed the chair when it wasn't swinging towards them. Then the perp goes to jail and they go back to work.

    That said, there is absolutely no reason for them not to shoot him. They would have to endanger their own lives in order to protect his. He put them in a deadly situation and they eliminated the threat.

  18. #18
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    We obviously need to ban these deadly "assault chairs"

    No one should be allowed to have a folding chair with one of those seat things that goes up.
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  19. #19
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    glad it woked out and the cop is ok

    BUT

    why deny gun rights to law abiding citizens

    thanks NYC, glad i moved away.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallPine
    No one should be allowed to have a folding chair with one of those seat things that goes up.
    No, you're allowed at least one 'banned' feature. Not sure what the other banned features are though - maybe you can't have 'military style' arm 'grips'?

  21. #21
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    If she shot him only 1 ft away while he was charging with a wooden chair, I'm guessing he still collided with her at the very least. Hence being treated for "trauma"? It doesn't list the sizes of the deceased or the officer but your average male bowling over your average female is gonna hurt. Especially with a wooden chair in hand (and probably in mid-swing).

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  22. #22
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    Based on the limited facts given, this shoot sounds legally justified - though obviously far from desirable.

    Probably would have been a good use of a taser if one had been available.
    NYPD Officers don't get tasers, only Sgts and above. Regular cops in NYC just have the fixed baton, collapsing baton, OC spray, firearm (though pretty much everyone carries a knife too, not that I know of anyone using it in defense)

  23. #23
    I"ll tell you'se guys one thing as a former LEO who no longer has 'The Calling' or "Feels the tug of empathy for the weak and defenseless", thank god there are those out there that care more than me. We owe them most of the time, just for being there!

  24. #24
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    Hard to tell without being there/ knowing all the facts but I thought this was what Tazers were for.
    The thing is if a civillian did this what kind of trouble would they get into compared to a LEO?
    Have a nice day!

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