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Thread: Giving Up Ground?

  1. #1
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    Giving Up Ground?

    I recently had a friend of the family who is also a gun nut suggest to me that we give ground to the gun grabbers. His key point was that if they want to ban "assault weapons" don't let them do it entirely. He suggested that we have to apply for assault weapons permits, like we have to apply for concealed weapons permits since "Obama wants to ban them all anyway." I tried to debate with him but he got kinda frustrated so I let it be. What do you think?
    Yes, I'm a grown man that loves My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Got a problem?

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    Once you let the camel get his nose in the tent, before long, you will be sharing your tent with a camel.

    We have to fight every fight we can, as hard as we can. If we do not, we will help the anti-gunners forge the links, ring by ring, that they will use to enslave us.

  3. #3
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    Give Up [More] Ground?

    We've been giving up ground for forty years.

    From the grabbers' perspective, "compromise" is where they propose to eliminate our right to bear arms completely, and we talk them into accepting a smaller restriction -- a lesser ban -- and they then boast about how fair they're being to us.

    After forty years of their version of compromise, how about we turn it around?

    The NEW compromise: we propose to repeal ALL gun control laws, and they talk us into accepting the repeal of only half of them.

    After all, fair's fair.

    We've let them pass more than 20,000 gun laws; it's time to let them pick which 10,000 they will repeal. And, of course, since we're better acquainted with those laws, we'll help them pick.

    After all, fair's fair.


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    Ground gained for them is ground lost for us. We can't let them have an inch on us.

    You can't please the gun grabbers until they know we can no longer even own those kinds of firearms. Even if there was a permit system they would claim t was faulty anyway and find something else to complain about. Remember that we don't negotiate with terrorists or gun grabbers.....or gun grabbing terrorists!
    “Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” Jon Stewart from Oprah interview, Sept 2010.

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    Give no ground or you will end up like Massachusetts. Or worse.

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    Well, I could maybe go along with having to get a permit and register your tactical nukes
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

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    I like where ArfinGreebly is coming from.

    Maybe it's time they give ground to us.

    But I'll extend his time-frame and say that we've been compromising for more than 70 years. Too much ground has been lost.

    The first AWB was the turning point. There are no more reasonable gun control laws. They decided to enact arbitrary rule with arbitrary rules and that is not acceptable.

    All of the reasonable laws are on the books. Focus on enforcing them.
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    Unconstitutional laws should not be enforced.

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    Unconstitutional laws should not be enforced.
    True words. But the gun-grabbers need something to occupy themselves so they're not lusting after the guns of the law-abiding.

    Wishful thinking, I know...
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    I don't mean to jump on WhisperFan, because I ultimately agree with the fact that every infringement must be strictly opposed, but..

    Slippery slope arguments don't carry much weight with many. They argue against whatever issue is at hand by saying its a threat to other more sacred issues. But it fails to focus on the merits of the particular issue at hand. Ultimately they're irrelevant to any individual arguement.

    An example of what I mean is; rather than saying registration makes it easy for guns to be banned and rounded up, say registration infringed on your right to keep/bear arms. Specifically, the actual physical act of possessing arms is only one small part of what it means to keep. It includes knowing what you have, accounting for them, maintaining them, distributing them for use; basically all those things which an armory would do for their arms. If the Gov steps in to control any one aspect, such as keeping track of what you have, then they are infringing on your right to keep. Additionally, the effectiveness of your arms depends on your potential enemy's knowledge of them. If the gov, which the militia protects/checks/regulates, knows the type and location of its arms, their ability to bear them is severely harmed. Therefor registration infringes both on you ability to keep and to bear arms.

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    Slippery slope arguments don't carry much weight with many. They argue against whatever issue is at hand by saying its a threat to other more sacred issues. But it fails to focus on the merits of the particular issue at hand. Ultimately they're irrelevant to any individual arguement.
    And I don't mean to jump on you - but it is my opinion that the gun grabbers - the ones that truly hate civilian ownership of all firearms - will never stop.

    They will ask for a ban, and 'settle' for registration. They will close the supposed 'gun show loophole' but allow person to person sales between friends and family. Then they will go after that later.

    You cant eat an entire cow in one sitting, but bite by bite, day by day ..... anti gun bill, by anti gun bill ............ the job gets done.

    Call it a slipperly slope if you must - but when we give ground, the anti-gunners might 'pause' for a period - but they do not consider their job finished.

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    The word you're looking for is "compromise". It's used a lot by the left, but not in it's accepted meaning.

    It USED to mean "we both want something. I'll give you some of what you want, for some of what I want". To the antis, it means "we want it all, but we'll settle for half (for now)". This is unaccpetable.

    We should be doing to them what they did to us in '86. When the next AWB comes down the pipe, a rider should be added, requiring all states and territories to honor CCW permits from any other state. ANY bill submitted that infringes on gun rights should immediately have a rider attached that loosens them in another way (repealing the Hughs amendment, of Lautenberg, etc). We should have a list of these riders, ready to go. THAT would be true compromise...
    So... where ARE we going, and why ARE we in this handbasket?

    formerly known as Hunter Rose

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    Thumbs up

    It USED to mean "we both want something. I'll give you some of what you want, for some of what I want". To the antis, it means "we want it all, but we'll settle for half (for now)". This is unaccpetable.
    Strings has nailed it. You get the gold star for the day. *Thumbs up*
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    Not one inch!

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    To compromise with tyranny is to endorse it.
    No tyrant should ever be allowed to die a natural death.

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    I understand that, Standing Wolf. However, if EVERY attempt at gun control is met with a "compromise" that loosens restrictions on arms, the other side might start getting the idea we won't accept any more infringements...
    So... where ARE we going, and why ARE we in this handbasket?

    formerly known as Hunter Rose

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  17. #17
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    This idea reminds me of the underpants gnomes from Southpark:

    Phase 1: Give up rights
    Phase 2: ?
    Phase 3: Profit

    There's some logic missing there. If you have to ask permission for something it's a privilege, not a right. Why would anyone want to turn their rights into privileges? You tend not to get them back once they're lost.
    "Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place." - Frederic Bastiat, The Law

  18. #18
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    tigre, I seem to be missing the point of your post...
    So... where ARE we going, and why ARE we in this handbasket?

    formerly known as Hunter Rose

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    I see no more reason to compromise on the 2nd amendment any more than the rest of the bill of rights.

    Ideological points aside, its just foolish to think anything given up would stop the assault on the 2nd.
    Every social movement (*snip*) that tries to break the bonds of mindless convention and tradition and that defies established privilege gets accused of being rude and worse, much worse, and there are always weak apologists for the status quo who use that pathetic etiquette excuse to try and silence the revolutionaries. Successful revolutionaries ignore the admonitions about which fork to use for their salad because they care only to grab the steak knife as they launch themselves over the table. -- Richard Dawkins

  20. #20
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    I'm not saying we should give anything up. However, the other side IS going to continue trying. What they pulled in '86 is something we can do too...
    So... where ARE we going, and why ARE we in this handbasket?

    formerly known as Hunter Rose

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  21. #21
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    Why give up anything? Instead of giving up the 2nd why not the 4th (search and seizure) or maybe even the 5th (compelled to bear witness against yourself)? It seems our 1st is already in equal danger (Mcain-Feingold). How long before we become a communist block style country, with no rights just government granted prevaleges?

  22. #22
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    tigre, I seem to be missing the point of your post...
    The point is that it's completely illogical to think that it will benefit us in any way to voluntarily give up our rights as some sort of compromise. The antis want us to compromise. They know they can't get everything they want immediately. They are patient. That's why they propose "reasonable restrictions" instead of telling the truth about their goals. Why would we help them get their restrictions passed?
    "Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place." - Frederic Bastiat, The Law

  23. #23
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    Which is why I'm proposing "reasonable compromise". Basically, poison pill EVERY piece of anti legislation that comes down the pipe, with things we want to get.

    Remember '86, and the Hugh's amendment? It was meant as a poison pill to derail the Gun Owner's Protection Act. The antis figured we wouldn't throw the FA crowd under the bus: but we did. We should be doing the exact same thing to them.

    We should have a list of "counter legislation" to use as such poison pills. All of them should be stuff we want (repeal of the Hugh's Amendment, or Lautenberg. Nationwide CCW reciprocity. Etc). And we keep attaching them to ANY anti legislation that comes down the pipe.

    Of course, that would require actually having a few legislators on OUR side, instead of just "not opposed to us"...
    So... where ARE we going, and why ARE we in this handbasket?

    formerly known as Hunter Rose

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  24. #24
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    No Compromise.

    The enemy camp has nothing to lose. It's our rights that go away anytime they win. They still retain their's when even when we win because they've never given anything up.
    Squished bugs on a windshield are proof the slow/heavy bullet theory works. -Me
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  25. #25
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    The German people compromised in 1934.

    I hope you know how THAT turned out!
    If the sun's up, you still have a pulse and background radiation levels are nominal -- everything else is gravy! ChAir Force Specialty Code 1825K // My oath to "defend the Constitution against ALL Enemies, Foreign and Domestic" has no DOS. . . .

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