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Thread: A Rate Of Fire Contest ...

  1. #1
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    A Rate Of Fire Contest ...

    ... to determine which handgun type will fire rounds fastest.

    Lay an empty six shot revolver on a table with an open box of fifty rounds. Lay an empty eight shot "semi-auto" on the next table with an open box of fifty rounds. Time how long it takes to load each firearm and fire off the fifty rounds and see which firearm goes through the fifty rounds the fastest.

    I would think that contest would shed a new light on the "lethality" of the supposedly "more deadly" semi-auto.

    Woody

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    I would think that contest would shed a new light on the "lethality" of the supposedly "more deadly" semi-auto.
    Do it while someone is shooting back at you, then we'll see.

    Start with a real world scenario even if you want to; 2 fully loaded mags for the semi and 2 spare speedloaders for the revolver, something you'd see in the real world.

    I don't know anyone that carrys conecaled with no loaded mags and a full box of ammo.
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  3. #3
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    Sorry, no changing the rules!

    Woody

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    It would be an interesting, if only academic, experiment.

    The difficult-to-control variable would be the skills of the human(s) involved.
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    No offense, but that sounds like the worst idea possible.

    If you wanted an actual comparison, I'd agree with the moonclip/speed loader and loaded mag comparison. You're fooling yourself if you think there's any real comparison to be made, regardless. Especially if you used a double-stack semiauto.

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    Posted these "simulations" a while ago while discussing "southpaw speedloading".

    I need to redo this now that I know where my speedloaders are though <grin>.

    Speedloading simulation (slow)

    Speedloading simulation (full speed)
    .
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    It would be an interesting, if only academic, experiment.
    Agreed. It's no less tortured than some of the outlandish scenarios put forward as "advantages" of either revolvers or autoloaders in the numerous "love" and "versus" threads to be found in the handgun forums.

    I'm not seeing a foregone conclusion. The non-attached magazine has a two round advantage between "sets", requires more handling but all the rounds are "pre-extracted" - no chance of "jumping a rim".

    I expect we'd learn something about the shooter and little about the platforms.

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    Yeah, I'm sorry but I don't see the point either. How would time to load magazines from a box be an indicator of "lethality?" That's why I keep magazines loaded for my pistols... lots and lots of magazines

    But honestly with my HK P2000 with 12 round magazines in .40S&W and three extra mags on the belt, I can go through four full magazines - that's 49 rounds, including one in the pipe - in, I don't know, 25 seconds tops? I haven't timed myself but allowing 3 seconds for reloads, which I think is pretty generous, and firing .3 second splits, again not really being overly optimistic, works out to 14.7 seconds of firing and 9 seconds of reloading for 23.7 seconds overall...

    To do it with the 8-shot auto you mandate would be 5 reloads, so still 14.7 seconds of firing and now 15 seconds of reloading to get to 29.7 seconds overall...

    So how long would it take a revolver to go through one cylinder and 7 speedloaders? That gets you to 48 rounds, 1 less than the auto but close enough. Again, what kind of splits can you get out of a DA revolver? We'll say the same .3 seconds, though I don't know how realistic this is, but we'll go with it. I don't know if 3 second reloads are possible with a revolver, I'd be inclined to say 4 or 5 might be more realistic, but again, we'll go with 3 seconds. So now you're at a slightly better 14.4 seconds of firing but up to 21 seconds of reloading for a grand total of 35.4 seconds total, almost 12 seconds or 50% longer than the P2000, 17% longer than the 1911...

    This doesn't even take into account the fact that plenty of people get .2x something splits from a good auto and I find it highly unlikely you can exceed or even match that with a DA revolver, though I can't prove it currently... and again 3 seconds for an auto reload is very conservative, but I think 3 seconds for a revolver reload is pushing it... and there are so many factors here at work beyond just the time, like trigger pull / practical accuracy, where you are going to put 7 speedloaders on your belt, etc. that make it such an unfair contest - and the revolver STILL can't make the time. Get up to a 15, 17 or 20-round autoloader and the gap widens even farther.

    I'm sorry, revolvers certainly have a place and in trained hands they can certainly be effective... but noone can seriously make the argument that you can get to 50 rounds faster in a realistic setting from a revolver than an autoloader, and certainly not with the same level of accuracy on-target. Requiring reloading from a box is a painfully arbitrary handicap that just doesn't translate to any meaningful difference in the real world.
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    Sorry, no changing the rules!

    Woody
    Then the experiment serves no useful purpose, but go ahead and do it and let us know how it goes.

    I'll stick to reality
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    *cough*Jerry Miculek*cough*

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    I'll stick to reality
    Really.

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    *cough*Jerry Miculek*cough*
    Well, if rules modifications aren't allowed, I'm not at all sure how Jerry would do denied his moon clips and loading a cylinder with loose rounds.

    Probably pretty good but I can't picture anyone of his skills participating in such a tortured experiment. Neither could I picture Leatham loading loose rounds in a magazine for the second half of the experiment.

    But, in the spirit of the far-fetched, stuffing loose rounds into a magazine would likely be far faster than the real equivalent: loading loose rounds into a moon clip or speed loader, and only then charging the cylinder. A timed drill loading moon clips could likely be timed with a sundial.

    So long as it remains "loose rounds vs loose rounds" per the OP, I don't see any overwhelming advantage on either side. Perhaps a tiny one to the autochucker due solely to the extra two rounds and no need to extract.

  13. #13
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    The skilled person would load one round in either the pistol or the revolver and kill the other person (target, whatever) with one shot.

    In any case, your scenario makes little sense.

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    Go watch Jerry Miculek shoot, then go watch Rob Leatham shoot.

    Then practice a lot. It doesn't matter which pistol you use. Only hits count.

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    It doesn't matter which pistol you use. Only hits count.
    Exactly correct.

    When I was a training officer for my dept. I had to constantly remind the "Rambos" (and Rambettes too) that no matter how fast they emptied and reloaded if they weren't hitting they were merely making noise.

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    Only hits count
    This is certainly true... but, all things being equal, two fast hits beat one slow hit. As they say, "anything worth being shot once is worth being shot twice."

    Once I got to the point I could hit on demand, I started working on hitting rapidly.

    So I rebutt that it DOES matter what pistol you use - you should use the pistol that not only allows you to get hits, but allows you to do so rapidly.
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    I would think that contest would shed a new light on the "lethality" of the supposedly "more deadly" semi-auto.
    I do like to try unusual things but I don't see any point in this experiment.

    I am a big revolver fan but I don't carry them empty, same as I don't carry around a semi-auto with empty magazines.

    So, shoot the revolver dry and reload.
    At the same time shoot the semi dry and reload the second magazine.
    You will still be loading the revolver by the time the semi has emptied the second magazine.

    I like and carry revolvers but I realize that if I have to reload I'm in big trouble.

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    Exactly correct.

    When I was a training officer for my dept. I had to constantly remind the "Rambos" (and Rambettes too) that no matter how fast they emptied and reloaded if they weren't hitting they were merely making noise.
    Exactly what I used to tell the new shooters fresh to the force when they would invariably ask when I was going to teach them how to fast draw because the first shot wins the fight. They would have to step back to the line and think about it when I kept telling them "No! The first good shot wins the fight." Somehow they just can't get the old 'noon on a dusty street' scenario out of their minds. They better have their gun in hand when approaching a dicey situation.
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    Lethality?

    Well assuming a suitable caliber, either gun is lethal if you put the round in the right spot. Rate of fire, or you can reload a revolver faster than magazines don't influence anyhthing other than how fast you can fire, and if you have to keep reloading ... then how fast you can miss ....

    I think I know where the OP was trying to go; and a practiced individual can load a revolver faster than most others can put 6 rounds in a magazine (regardless of the capacity of the magazine) and a practiced individual with speed loaders can hang right in there, or beat an average shooter doing a magazine change. Heck I can put up a pretty good rate of fire with one of my TC Contenders, no not as fast as either of the others, but you'd be surprised. However, I try very hard to make the 1st shot count, expecially when using one of the TC's.

    When all you had were dump pouches on your duty belt ... you got pretty quick at reloading the revolver.

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    The type of revolver wasn't specified so I'm gonna claim it is a chute loading western style and declare the auto the winner! Off to the bar. Who's comin'?
    Speedy, AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy" NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV
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    chute loading western style
    lol if we're stuck with an 8-shot 1911, then that sounds fair to me :P
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    Given only 1 magazine for the auto I would say the revolver will give it a run for the money if not win. I know I can load two at a time out of a box of shells and load six up and get back to shooting pretty fast.

  23. #23
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    Given those rules I think Quigley could beat both with his single shot Sharps
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    Off to the bar. Who's comin'?
    Be right there gotta unload my gun apparently that's the new thing.
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  25. #25
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    naw... just OC here in Virginny.
    Speedy, AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy" NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV
    I don't have NEAR enough ammo!

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