Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 53

Thread: Army Orders Another 20,000 9mm Pistols

  1. #1
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    07-18-06
    Location
    Near the Rockies
    Posts
    311

    Army Orders Another 20,000 9mm Pistols

    9MM TO NOWHERE (NOVEMBER 20, 2008)
    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htw.../20081120.aspx
    U.S. Army TACOM (Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command) has ordered another 20,000 Beretta 92FS 9mm pistols. These will cost $410 each. The M9 is a 34-ounce, 8.5 weapon with a 4.9 barrel and a magazine that holds 15 rounds. It replaced the M1911 .45 caliber ACP. This was a 39-ounce, 8.25 weapon with a 5 barrel and a 7-round magazine. Both pistols are only accurate at up to about 50 meters. The M1911 had more hitting power, while the M9 was a bit more accurate. Numerous and frequent complaints from the troops have led to some U.S. Department of Defense efforts to find a new pistol to replace the current M9 9mm weapon. It's not just nostalgia. When the U.S. switched over from the M1911 pistol to the M9 in the 1980s, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) went to Heckler and Koch for a more powerful pistol. What resulted was the Mk 23 SOCOM. This .45 caliber pistol has a 12-round magazine and the ability to carry a silencer. It is based on the H&K USP45, which has been available for the civilian and law enforcement markets. The fact that there are several larger (than 9mm) caliber pistols out there for the law enforcement market gives you a hint at what is going on here.

    It comes down to this: most of the military personnel issued a pistol will rarely have to use it. But those who do, like Special Forces, want more firepower than a 9mm round can deliver. The 9mm has been popular with police forces who don't encounter much opposition. But when the other guy is likely to shoot back, you want as much knock down power as you can get. Thus, cops who shoot a lot prefer 10mm and larger calibers (like the 11.4mm .45). Special Forces and SOCOM in general have the authority to get any weapons they think they need, with no interference from anyone. SOCOM has lots of small unit operations that use pistols. The SOCOM operators believe that the 9mm pistol is not adequate, thus the adoption of the Mk23. Many key members of Congress are determined that the DoD will not end up with several different new pistols. Congress is telling the brass, if they don't like the M9, then agree on a new one. But so far, the services have not been able to agree. Thus the saga continues.


    "Where is the weapon with which I enforce your bondage? You give it to me every time you open your mouth." -- Frank Herbert

  2. #2
    what is so wrong with the glock? I'm not their biggest fan, but I know good product when i see it. they just need a "glock FOtay" and youth-military interest would skyrocket!


    and the REAL problem is the Geneva convention, since the military can't use hollow points. 9mm hollow points do just as good as anything.
    If Caesar had put a ban on assault swords Brutus couldn't have killed him.

    The price of freedom is eternal vigilance - Thomas Jefferson

  3. #3
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    05-01-06
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,697
    I think the Army specifies that they need a manual safety. Ruling out the glock.
    NRA Life Member
    1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a
    firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for
    traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

  4. #4
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    11-16-06
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    605
    We going to do this again?
    What does the entire gun community have against the idea of having a choice?
    Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul!

  5. #5
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    01-28-03
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    2,321
    Hollow points fall under Hague, not Geneva.

  6. #6
    Hollow points fall under Hague, not Geneva.
    oops! good call. thanks.
    If Caesar had put a ban on assault swords Brutus couldn't have killed him.

    The price of freedom is eternal vigilance - Thomas Jefferson

  7. #7
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    10-13-05
    Location
    Canuck in SE WA State.
    Posts
    3,164
    what about EFMJ rounds??

  8. #8
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    05-01-06
    Location
    Portland Oregon
    Posts
    1,499
    The M9 is not a bad gun but I am certainly one of the people who think the Army would be more well served with a different gun.

    The glock would be a great choice and if the Army did not want to eliminate the manual safety rule then I would be willing to bet that Glock would be willing to add some sort of safety either a grip safety or a lever.

    Of course MY preference would be the M&P since its made in the USA and performs on the same level as the glock.
    The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. - Thomas Jefferson
    http://tacticool-ninja.blogspot.com/

  9. #9
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    05-19-08
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,503
    Glock has made models with a manual safety when it was essential to get the sale to a government somewhere.

    The M&P is available, at least in .45, in models with a manual safety.

    IIRC, the M9 was selected at a time when there were only two other modern DA/SA automatics to choose from, and it won partly on the basis of mud tests where its open slide was an advantage. I'm not saying it's a bad gun, but it's awfully large for something that holds only 15rds of 9mm. There are so many better options today, and most of them cost less and weigh less.

    What happened to DOD's buy of thousands of Ruger P95's a couple years back? Were those only to give to "allies," or kept by US military units?

  10. #10
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    05-20-07
    Location
    Prescott, AZ, USA
    Posts
    562
    Bringing back the 1911 would be a nice little bailout for Colt. Won't anyone think of the Ponies?

  11. #11
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    07-02-07
    Posts
    164
    From what I understand, Glock will not submit a pistol to army trials because they will not allow others to reproduce their designs. If they were to submit a gun they have to agree to let others produce firearms of their design under contract for the Army.

  12. #12
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    06-30-08
    Location
    Blue River Wisconsin, in a little hut in the woods
    Posts
    3,530
    I love my 1911 and it has been my primary weapon for more than 40 years but I do recognize that there have been improvements made in design, material, sights and trigger. Much as I like the 45ACP thats is mostly because of familiarity and competition experience. To old now but if I was able to get back in uniform and had to go into harms way I would opt for a 10MM. I wouldn't feel disadvantaged with a 45 at normal pistol distances but I am pretty decent at ranges not considered normal handgun range and the 10 wins the nod. My ignoring the 40 wasn't an accident, its better than the 9 but if you have to defend your life you should have as much advantage in your fist as you can get and still shoot accurately. I know why the police wimped out on the 41 and the FBI on the 10 but better guns and better grips puts both of them back in the hunt as a viable service round.
    1934 National Firearms Act, 1968 The Gun Control Act, 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act, 1993 Brady Handguns Violence Act, 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, 1995 Gun Free School Zones Act, NO MORE COMPROMISING

  13. #13
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    01-28-06
    Location
    West Texas
    Posts
    159
    I just paid $399 for a NIB Beretta 92 and I only had to buy 1!!! Maybe the military should shop Gunbroker.

  14. #14
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    06-06-08
    Location
    Springfield, Oregon
    Posts
    686
    The US military should do what the Israelis did with the Merkava.
    Have real soldiers decided what features they want.
    Maybe we could get a real monster of a handgun out of it.
    Though I think a PDW would be a little more fitting now.
    "Lenin at least had an excuse for his mindlessness: he died of syphillis." - Standing Wolf
    "Remember, Remember The Fifth of November!"
    "It's not my Goal in life to be appropriate."

  15. #15
    Few soldiers ever use or need a pistol, only one circumstance comes to mind and that is the Tunnnel Rats of Vietnam Era. These guys used mainly 45's although I did hear stories of some using .357's too.
    The 9mm was popular in Europe as a military round, most Police in Europe up until not to long ago used .32 and .380 as police rounds, and commanders sometimes carried .22lr like the Beretta. I think European attitude was to only wound suspects hence the weaker calibers. A 9mm is great in a SMG, but in a handgun, it is an entirely different matter. Sure, use a Glock or Beretta and hit the person 5-6 times and you will see him go down probably, but nothing like the punch of a .45 when the perp plunged a needle of adrenaline into himself 10 minutes earlier.
    I personally carry a .38 currently but don't think I am happy about it, OTOH, I doubt I will need to use it against someone on adreneline and I can shoot that .38 pretty accurate. Still, nothing like a .45

  16. #16
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    05-26-07
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    819
    Remember that .45 and .40 are not NATO calibers. While it's ok for the small specialized units to adopt what ever they want, it would be more of a political hurdle for a widespread adoption of a new round.


    I would be willing to bet that Glock would be willing to add some sort of safety either a grip safety or a lever
    And then they would have an Springfield XD
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"
    --Thomas Jefferson

  17. #17
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-29-02
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    3,395
    I don't know that the size of the M9 is a drawback when all you get to use in it is FMJ and you open carry it.

    4.9 inches of barrel is going to wring a little extra performance out of the load and should it fail to stop the BG, that huge Beretta makes for a decent pistol whipping platform.

    If the SAO 1011 was too untrustworthy for the troops to keep loaded anywhere but beyond the wire, the Glock and its legendary ND rate will be mistrusted too, even with an itty bitty safety grafted onto it.

    "I find the curiosity of our party is pretty well satisfied with respect to this animal."

    Capt. M. Lewis summing up in his journal after several near death experiences with grizzly bears.

  18. #18
    Administrator   
    Join Date
    05-18-04
    Location
    In a pot of water, 200 degrees and rising slowly....
    Posts
    5,744
    Make an M9 in .45 ACP and a single-column magazine.
    "...there's always somebody else out there that needs to be whacked"... MajGen James Mattis, to Co G, Third Battalion, Twenty-Third Marines, in Al Kut, Iraq, July 2003

    What I do.

  19. #19
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    05-19-08
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,503
    4.9 inches of barrel is going to wring a little extra performance out of the load and should it fail to stop the BG, that huge Beretta makes for a decent pistol whipping platform.
    The long barrel makes no actual improvement in muzzle velocity - see chrono testing at hipowersandhandguns.com, among other sources.

    It'd be better for pistol whipping it it was all steel. Maybe they could buy those little bayonets from CZ while they're at it.

  20. #20
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    05-12-06
    Posts
    2,086
    It'd be better for pistol whipping it it was all steel. Maybe they could buy those little bayonets from CZ while they're at it.
    Nope...it doesn't even have an accessory rail ;P
    "Training errors are recorded on paper. Tactical errors are etched in stone." -Erwin Rommel
    Explanations exist: they have existed for all times, for there is always an easy solution to every problem neat, plausible and wrong. - H.L. Mencken

  21. #21
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Posts
    2,946
    I just paid $399 for a NIB Beretta 92 and I only had to buy 1!!! Maybe the military should shop Gunbroker.
    The contract probably included cleaning kits and spare parts for the next 10 years. Considering barrels are a pretty common spare for the M92...
    What Would Loki Do?

    Owen's Life

  22. #22
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    04-27-06
    Posts
    2,137

    old news...

    The fact that the US Army was going to get a new run of M-9 9mmNATO pistols is not a big surprise.
    Budget cuts and other political issues prevent the US DoD and military forces from doing any real R&D on new service pistols.
    Why the US Army did not upgrade to the M-9a1 model like the USMC is what I do not understand. But as a Army veteran, there are many things I still don't understand about the US Army.

    RS
    TUBBS: What makes us better than them?
    CROCKETT: We're better shots.
    NBC's Miami Vice

  23. #23
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    03-04-05
    Posts
    3,207
    I don't know a ton of miltary guys, but the few I've talked with really don't like the M9, mainly due to the weight and size. They're not fond of 9mm either.
    There are two kinds of people in the world: (1) the free; and (2) food animals.

    -Aristodemus

  24. #24
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    03-01-04
    Posts
    3,524
    I thought the new M9s all have accessory rails
    IANSA is the enemy.

    "If someone is so fearful that they are going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have weapons at all." ~~Henry Waxman

  25. #25
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    01-31-08
    Posts
    674
    Make an M9 in .45 ACP and a single-column magazine.
    Taurus does.

    http://www.taurususa.com/products/pr...ategory=Pistol
    Taking the high road does not always, if ever, mean taking the middle road.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •