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Thread: Vastly Disparate Opinions On Why Americans Are Buying Guns.

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    Vastly Disparate Opinions On Why Americans Are Buying Guns.

    A balanced article from Jacksonville about the whys and wherefores of the past months' gun buying surge.Note the Harvard Law Professor's opinion and the Black Panther comment near the end.
    They're back!

    http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-onlin...58910637.shtml

    Last modified 11/23/2008 - 12:26 pm


    The president-elect has said he respects Americans' right to bear arms, but many gun enthusiasts don't believe him.


    By Charlie Patton, The Times-Union

    Jacksonville resident Scott Albrecht spent Thursday shopping for a pistol and a shotgun at St. Nicholas Gun & Sporting Goods.

    Albrecht wants the weapons for "personal defense," and he said the timing of his visit to the Westside gun store - 16 days after Barack Obama won the presidential election - was no coincidence.

    "I'm concerned that they're going to try to take away handgun rights," Albrecht said.

    Although Obama sought to reassure gun enthusiasts in campaign ads and on his campaign Web site that he "believes the Second Amendment creates an individual right and ... [he] respects the constitutional rights of Americans to bear arms," a lot of gun enthusiasts don't believe him.

    The National Rifle Association said on its Web site and in a pamphlet widely distributed before the election that Obama "would be the most anti-gun president in American history." The site also has expressed alarm because potential employees in the Obama administration are being asked to detail their gun ownership and because Eric Holder, who Obama will probably appoint attorney general, has supported gun controls.

    There has been a surge in gun sales in recent weeks as reflected in the number of National Instant Criminal Background Checks that gun stores are seeking from the FBI. Gun stores, unlike private dealers, must request a background check each time a customer purchases guns, although one check can cover more than one gun.

    So far this year, the applications are up by 7 percent over 2007. They were up 15 percent in October over October 2007. Most striking was a 49 percent increase over 2007 - to 374,510 requests - during the week of Nov. 3-9, which included Election Day, the FBI reported.

    Not all expect rush to judge

    Gun dealers have attributed this surge to fear that Obama's administration would move to severely restrict gun ownership. But not everyone thinks gun owners are going to be under siege Jan. 21.

    "I think that there are more important issues they are going to tackle," said Chad Rischar, who was browsing a gun case at St. Nicholas Gun.

    That sentiment is shared by Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor who wrote the 2007 book Out of Range: Why the Constitution Can't End the Battle Over Guns. He told The Associated Press he thinks gun regulation is going to be a low priority for the new administration.

    "Maybe the gun-show loophole will be closed, but not much else," he said.

    The loophole he refers to is one that exempts the private sale of firearms from the federal background check requirement. That loophole means that in many states, including Florida, firearms can be sold at gun shows by private dealers without background checks.

    Worry 'across the spectrum'

    Gun enthusiasts also are worried that the new administration will try to reinstate a ban on assault weapons, which expired in 2004, and try to institute a ban on concealed weapons, which might lead to a ban on all handguns, said Jim Lowry, a retired police officer who is a salesman at St. Nicholas Gun.

    Obama has said he opposed lifting the ban on assault rifles and doesn't support laws that allow carrying concealed weapons.

    Obama said during the campaign that the "individual right to bear arms ... is subject to common-sense regulation," Lowry said. "But what he considers reasonable and what the guy on the street considers reasonable might be very different."

    Drew Brunson, an information security analyst and former journalist, wrote in an e-mail: "I look at his voting record and not what he has said on the campaign trail. ... Unfortunately, [because of] the willingness of the media and the anti-gun crowd to buy in to ... the demonization of weapons that differ only cosmetically from other weapons, efforts to restrain trade in weapons and ammunition are most likely to succeed."

    Another e-mailer, Jonathan D. Jennings, said that when 74 people showed up four days after the election for a class that is required for a concealed weapon permit, a second class had to be added to accommodate the overflow.

    "The class I attended was a cross section of the population: blacks, whites, Hispanics, young and old, males and females," he wrote. "Apparently people across the spectrum are worried."

    Radical or necessary?

    But Robert Jones noted in an e-mail that the rush to buy guns out of fear they will be banned flies in the face of the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision that overturned a longtime ban on handguns in Washington, D.C., "the first time in our history that the court had ruled it was an individual right, not a collective right of militias."

    Jones said "a lot of the increased purchases are a result of the usual right-wing fear-mongering, especially by the NRA, intended to convince people their guns may be taken away."

    In a comment bound to infuriate some gun owners, Mikhail Muhammad, state and Jacksonville chairman of the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, said the increasing gun sales were a reaction by "the radical element in the white community."

    "We call it white supremacy anxiety disorder," Muhammad said.

    On the other hand, Shelby Craw of Pace Island said she believes the Constitution grants citizens the right to overthrow the government "when it becomes necessary."

    "We can't do it with rolling pins and pots," she said. "I'm purchasing a .38 this week."

    charlie.patton@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4413

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    Thank you, Johnny Dollar. I really enjoyed this article.
    Let's all stand together, so we won't have to stand apart later on.

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    I wonder how much of it is connected to people thinking the economy is about to seriously implode?
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    Radical element, eh?!

    Ha! Radical element, eh?

    Do they have a white, all American mutt - NON hyphenated American citizen and/or legal immigrant not illegal alien, middle class, eyeglass wearing, middle aged ladies group there? Not the gray panthers either! Ha!

    I think that there are many reasons WHY people are buying more guns and ammunition plus reloading supplies/equipment.

    One of the gentlemen here already beat me to one of many, many reasons.

    The ECONOMY and anything to do with financial matters!

    It does not take a rocket scientist to see the fruits/stinking results of the last so many years come to LIGHT as many of us spoke about in the PAST when we were called nuts, paranoid, conspiracy theory people, tin foil hatters, etc.

    Gee, some of those folks are NOT laughing now and wonder about being prepared and not only for weather related emergencies!

    The NWO folks in the R and D parties have shown their light and TRUST me on this... you ain't seen nothing yet! (As the old song goes.) Between the depression, not the recession, the NWO power control freaks, the anti gunners, the Brady Bunch, the war mongering nuts, the other GUN GRABBERS, the ammunition costs, new ammunition regulations in this country, new upcoming gun laws in the USA and in some states plus the United Nations deal that our fearless leaders (Ha!) might just sign when it comes to more GUN regulations... welcome to the USSA - Amerika!

    Some of the pro freedom, pro gun folks, people who got screwed with their pensions and MORE might not take too KINDLY to bending over some more for more spankings and 'whatever' from the folks in the District of Criminals and their own state capitols! I am NOT saying for sure that THIS will happen but nothing would shock me anymore after watching the ANTI GUN and anti freedom messes in the last so many years from even before Waco, Ruby Ridge, ignoring and shredding the Constitution, bail outs/sell outs in ALL ways, etc.

    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Just because you're paranoid does not mean that 'they' are not out to get you!
    Last edited by Catherine; November 24th, 2008 at 03:54 AM. Reason: Added more and typos.
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  5. #5
    In a comment bound to infuriate some gun owners, Mikhail Muhammad, state and Jacksonville chairman of the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, said the increasing gun sales were a reaction by "the radical element in the white community."

    "We call it white supremacy anxiety disorder," Muhammad said.
    I would love to know why black militants seem to be obsessed with taking Muslim names even though Arabs and Muslims were more active in the slave trade than the Europeans could ever dream of being. But that is an issue for another discussion. (I guess they can't be bothered to read a history book since history is, after all, a tool of the evil white man.)

    What is really telling about that statement is the fact that a left-wing militant group is ultimately going to come down on the side of the left even though it goes against their right to arm themselves (which is, after all, the whole point of a militant group, left-wing or right-wing.) You would think the Black Panthers and any other militant organization would be as far right as possible on the 2nd Amendment despite any of their other views, after all, what is a militant group without arms? But - they have to find some way to denounce it and blame it on the evil white man.

    Even though their whole right to exist is only possible because some old white men with guns decided that it should be.
    ▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄ ПOНК РОК ▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀

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    "We call it white supremacy anxiety disorder," Muhammad said.
    Wow. Witty. Seriously witty.
    No tyrant should ever be allowed to die a natural death.

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    Gun stores, unlike private dealers, must request a background check each time a customer purchases guns
    Such ignorance! There is no such thing as a "private dealer". If you are in the business of buying and selling guns for profit without a license you are committing a felony.

    When they talk "Gun Show Loophole" they are talking outlawing private sales. California does this, there is no gun crime in California anymore now is there?

    You would think the Black Panthers and any other militant organization would be as far right as possible on the 2nd Amendment despite any of their other views, after all, what is a militant group without arms?
    I suspect they figure the folks running dope to them can smuggle in as much guns and ammo as they'll need along with it, besides they'll need much less once the law abiding sheep are disarmed.

    --wally.
    Your commitment to Freedom and Liberty is measured by your tolerance for others doing things you disapprove.
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    Good rant going on here. Really good rant.

    How-some-ever, my favorite gun counter is at a pawn shop in what is genteely called a disadvantaged section of town. The last couple of times I've been in there, the neighbors were buying guns. I'm talking about little old ladies and hardworking blue-collar types of the African-American persuasion.

    I wonder how they'd explain that?

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    On the other hand, Shelby Craw of Pace Island said she believes the Constitution grants citizens the right to overthrow the government "when it becomes necessary."

    "We can't do it with rolling pins and pots," she said. "I'm purchasing a .38 this week."
    Patriot or terrorist? In todays time, that comment could get you a visit by some guys in cheap suits and on a anti fly list.


    If all the people buying guns are panicking because they believe the incomming admin will ban them, where the hell were they on election day?

    I find more people are buying in anticipation of a ban so they can make stupid money selling those items after the ban.

    If the NRA had any bite to their publications, Obama would have lost.
    Saying the publications have anything to do with panic buying at this point, academia as usual doesn't recognize the difference between class room and real world theories and fact.

    The new, old whatever panther party is just looking for headlines. Its real easy right now to use race as a fear topic rather than fear of policy.

    After all without fear, the panthers would be nothing.
    Those who are arrogant enough to believe they are smarter than everyone else are just as stupid as those who came before them

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    How-some-ever, my favorite gun counter is at a pawn shop in what is genteely called a disadvantaged section of town. The last couple of times I've been in there, the neighbors were buying guns. I'm talking about little old ladies and hardworking blue-collar types of the African-American persuasion.

    I wonder how they'd explain that?
    They can't explain it!!!

    That is why you won't see anything about it on the liberal Media.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government".....Thomas Jefferson

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    I wonder how they'd explain that?
    I would think, "black power anxiety disorder".

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    This isn't a black or white thing as the media would have you believe.

    People are SCARED and ANGRY.

    They are popping their heads up out of their cubicles or whatever the jail of their choice is . . .

    Do you realize the 52 week swing in the DOW is almost 50% at around 6500?

    Gas has doubled and then halved in price.

    Jobs went from being plentiful to scarce.

    The bottom line: they haven't violated the covenant yet - if and when they do, the world will get a look at the sleeping giant that they haven't seen in over 50 years. It won't be pretty either.

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    Whatever ... the more guns in private hands just means more that they will have to try to confiscate
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

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    If all the people buying guns are panicking because they believe the incomming admin will ban them, where the hell were they on election day?
    Caught between two anti gun candidates, one who's lies about being anti gun were sanctioned by the NRA, and one who'se anti gun agenda was too large to ignore.
    יזכר לא עד פעם (Remember. Never Again.)

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    In todays time, that comment could get you a visit by some guys in cheap suits and on a anti fly list.
    This is an absolutely incorrect statements. The people coming to visit her wouldn't necessarily be wearing cheap suits. Plenty of FBI agents spend the cash on high quality suits. And Kevlar and tactical gear is not cheap.

    The ignorance of some people.

  16. #16
    Patriot or terrorist? In todays time, that comment could get you a visit by some guys in cheap suits and on a anti fly list.
    Has Scalia been arrested yet?
    Sic semper tyrannis

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    this isn't a black or white thing as the media would have you believe.

    People are scared and angry.

    They are popping their heads up out of their cubicles or whatever the jail of their choice is . . .

    Do you realize the 52 week swing in the dow is almost 50% at around 6500?

    Gas has doubled and then halved in price.

    Jobs went from being plentiful to scarce.

    The bottom line: They haven't violated the covenant yet - if and when they do, the world will get a look at the sleeping giant that they haven't seen in over 50 years. It won't be pretty either.
    We have SIX PERCENT unemployment rate.

    6%!!!!

    It was 4.5% during the "up" economy.

    is 1.5% REALLY that much a difference?

    There may be things to get angry about, but "JOBS" is the least informed choice.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

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    I don't think we've seen the worst of the unemployment so far ...
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

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    This is an absolutely incorrect statements. The people coming to visit her wouldn't necessarily be wearing cheap suits. Plenty of FBI agents spend the cash on high quality suits. And Kevlar and tactical gear is not cheap.
    I realize this is a veer, but if you want to be scared, look up what starting FBI agents make vs. what kind of resumes they must have. It's a very quiet mini-scandal. In many areas a local cop with a Bachelor's degree would make more, sometimes much more, than a starting FBI agent who generally has several years work experience and/or an advanced degree, and often has a family to support.

    Oh, and I don't think FBI agents have to pay for their own vests or tactical gear, but I'm not one so I guess I don't know for sure.

    Enough tangent, I'll leave it at that.

    One on-point comment: in most states a CCW/CPL holder can purchase guns (all types other than NFA) on the basis of their CCW permit, without a NICS check. And people who get those permits are probably more "into" guns than people who don't. So the numbers implied by the NICS check increase are probably badly understated.

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    I realize this is a veer, but if you want to be scared, look up what starting FBI agents make vs. what kind of resumes they must have. It's a very quiet mini-scandal. In many areas a local cop with a Bachelor's degree would make more, sometimes much more, than a starting FBI agent who generally has several years work experience and/or an advanced degree, and often has a family to support.
    I twice considered going into the Bureau. After all, it's the reason I decided to go to law school. There is an amazing amount of talent the feds are getting for comparatively nothing.

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    “Private dealer”?? Either you’re a private citizen or a dealer. They must have the ‘spin machine’ running at turbo speed.

    Definition of “Gun show loophole” after being run through the ‘spin filter’: a private citizen can sell to another private citizen without Big Brother knowing about it and Big Brother is miffed. They can’t confiscate them if they don’t know where they are.

    My personal favorite is his putting personal defense in quotes!
    Fred Schroeder
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    I twice considered going into the Bureau. After all, it's the reason I decided to go to law school. There is an amazing amount of talent the feds are getting for comparatively nothing.
    Same. When I left one of the banks a while back I wanted to do something a little different. I'm an IT Security guy and thought joining the FBI would be interesting. They need good IT forensics people and it wouldn't the same old stuff for me. Forget that. I'd have to take like a 60% pay cut to join. They don't pay anywhere remotely close to market for what they require.

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    We have SIX PERCENT unemployment rate.

    6%!!!!

    It was 4.5% during the "up" economy.

    is 1.5% REALLY that much a difference?

    There may be things to get angry about, but "JOBS" is the least informed choice.
    I'm not sure what the stats mean but I can tell you, in the NYMetro job market, IT Jobs have suddenly become scarce and payrates are down 25%.

    Is that a leading indicator? Who knows, but talk to recruiters, when it is a buyers market, they let you know, and that's all everyone can talk about.

    Real or perceived, it becomes reality when everyone starts blabbing about it. Including the never to be sufficiently damned media.

    People aren't buying guns and ammo just because they think Obama will take them. You are looking at multiple fronts making up this storm.

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    Heck, I bought mine for the revolution.
    To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them..........George Mason

    To Obama, all I can say is... ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Jack Shafer has an interesting take on this. He makes the point that the gun sale "bubble" doesn't look like too much of a bubble in proper perspective. Additionally, gun ownership rates are not increasing in proportion with gun sales, and have actually fallen when looking back over the last thirty years. Basically, the uptick in gun sales seems mostly concentrated with people who already own guns, with the actual reasons being more speculative.

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