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Thread: Ammunition Encoding

  1. #1
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    Ammunition Encoding

    http://ammunitionaccountability.org/

    This site has been up since Jan 2007 and has some links to legislation in a few stated which would require bullet encoding.

    Alabama, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington.

    I would bet a hard day's wages that this is in place by the company who holds the patent. My clue was "...A licensing fee for each bullet sold would also be required."

    I know this has been posted before, but did not see any links to this site.

    The activism part is - keep an eye on this site specifically when they post their 2009 Legislative then pounce on your representatives at every level to oppose this.
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    I would bet a hard day's wages that this is in place by the company who holds the patent. My clue was "...A licensing fee for each bullet sold would also be required."
    You're batting %100 there. I'll try and find the link later.

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    This is going to be a hard fight, and probably soon.

    Ammo makers have a mixed interest in this; probably they're in favor generally of gun freedoms (whether as individuals who favor liberty philosophically, or as rational businessmen), but this might present a big enough profit motive that if / when it looks likely that such will be required, they might testify in favor of it to congress, etc.

    Police departments will have a budget-item on which they vitally need a hand-out from all citizens who are opposed to crime. (Scavenger hunt: find a govt. entity that wants to *underspend* its budget ...)

    Anti-gun types will see it, either cynically (that is to say, realistically) or not, as the best way to reduce widespread gun ownership.

    Most / many people will be persuaded by the usual "for the children" propaganda.

    Elected officials will drag out their usual lines (epidemic of gun violence, police hampered but with an easy solution -- give them "law enforcement tools," etc), because people have to be just scared enough to vote for them and their "reasonable, common-sense" approaches.

    And the people who have the patents, as noted, have an interest so clearly vested there ought to be a stronger word (And for them, too, it doesn't matter whether they are sincere or mendacious.)

    timothy

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    There is no public support for this. Police departments do not need to replace a relatively cheap item with a more expensive item. The scheme can be defeated very easily. It is opposed, vociferously, by the NRA. The technology is untried and untested and expensive.

    I don't see this one going anywhere.

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    Ammo makers have a mixed interest in this; probably they're in favor generally of gun freedoms (whether as individuals who favor liberty philosophically, or as rational businessmen), but this might present a big enough profit motive that if / when it looks likely that such will be required, they might testify in favor of it to congress, etc.
    Ammo makers have zero interest in this as the technology is patented by one company. It will only drive up the cost of producing ammunition with no benefit for the manufacturer or consumer.

    Don't forget that our military's special forces often go into the field with "sterile" weapons. Ammo manufacturers aren't going to like re-tooling a production line to make sterile ammo for a pallet or two of ammo on a custom spec-ops order, then switch back the line to continue production for commercial vendors.
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    Don't forget that our military's special forces often go into the field with "sterile" weapons. Ammo manufacturers aren't going to like re-tooling a production line to make sterile ammo for a pallet or two of ammo on a custom spec-ops order, then switch back the line to continue production for commercial vendors.
    There goes mil-surp ammo
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    Look up .45 Super to get an idea how much ammo companies will support paying for a patent like this.


    As a bit of history from ACE Custom .45s website:

    "In 1988, the beginning idea for a "45Super" originated in Dean Grennells fertile imagination. ...............in 1994 when factory produced "45Super" ammunition became available and Ace Custom45s obtained a "Federally Registered Trademark" of the name "45Super"."


    Prior to 1994 a couple of ammo companies were producing .45 Super. Several more were looking into it. One firearms company was begining to market a factory pistol chambered in it and several others were looking into it as well. When the trademark was awarded, and began being enforced, all outside interest disappeared. Only one ammo company continued to make ammo.

    The big ammo companies will NOT want to have to pay royalties to some company that owns a patent on a non necessary process for making ammo. They will fight it tooth and nail. It only remains to see if gun owners will back them or throw them to the wolves ..........

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    Last time I looked at this, they didn't even have the technology...they were hoping that if a few states like PRK mandated it, that someone else would pony up the capital for development.

    Tests done on encoded firing pins, etc, showed that they were unreadable inside of 50 rounds and easily defeated.

    Encoding propellant means you have residue all over the place that is impossible to track, making solving crimes HARDER.

    Encoding the cases means that revolvers (which would be all we'd have with "reasonable" gun control) would not leave any trace, nor would anything with a brass catcher.

    The stupidity and the fight never end.
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    Is this from the same manufacturer that rifled through the microstamping in California. It sounds like a similar technology application on an even bigger scale because the cartridge is a consumable item, not the firearm.
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    http://ammunitionaccountability.org:80/Legislation.htm
    Here it is. The claim is that this pro gun businessman wanted to help fight crime, spent 200,000 dollars perfecting the system and went legislative when ammo companies didn't show interest. It smells like a fictious bio put forth by the usual suspects. The various bills all have similar language including requiring owners of un coded ammunition to dispose of it.

    The inventor quoted Heinlein "an armed societ is a polite society." No doubt he is now finding out a lot about impoliteness.

  11. #11
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    ammo

    I hate to rain one any one BUT Mass rejected the serializing bill.and I understand california too.it would be almost impossible to manufacture ammo,as at each box would have to change the code.any idea how many rds a day are made.
    chrysler evensville arsenal made over 3 billion of 45s 6/42 to4/44
    "Bullets by the Billion" by Wesley W Stout
    Chrysler corperation 1946
    3,264,281,914rds in 300 days.108,809,390 a day do you realy think this idea will work.and that is without changing calibers.

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    Ref: http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm
    Proposed legislation to serialize ammunition.

    I hear a lot of people whining about the proposals, lets DO something.

    Actually ALL of us have the ability to at least hamper this stupid effort (the numbering [encoding] of ammunition). Simply by pointing up to the proposed legislators that their estimate of one half cent per round ($.005, per their web site) is seriously flawed.

    - - - Begin "logic" against the proposal - - -

    To accomplish what they propose, the inside of the case would need to be completely redesigned to maintain the structural integrity during firing. Since there is no provision for a military exemption, it would add millions of needless dollars to the cost of maintaining our military. If the decision is reached to exempt military ammunition from serialization, then it would require tracking of ALL military ammunition, something that is not required now. Once again, adding significant cost to the military.

    Following the military line of thought: Three of the major calibers used by the military (9mm, 5.56 and 7.62x51) also have significant use by civilians for target practice. Do you really think the manufacturer would place the cost of serialization on the civilian populace? Please think again. Even with very significant purchases by the military, the civilian population purchases far and away the majority of ammunition. As such, the military would incur a significant charge, once again, increasing our military budget.

    Current information tells us that there are about 200,000,000 guns, legally owned, within the United States (I have read numbers from 150,000,000 to 250,000,000, so let's use the "average" just for discussion). From the people that I know, the "average" gun owner has one box of ammunition for each gun he/she owns. I personally think that figure is low, but let's use it, just for a starting point. That means that there are 10 TRILLION (200 million times fifty) rounds of ammunition located in American households. 10 TRILLION rounds that this proposal would outlaw in 2011. That means that you would automatically produce either millions of felons, retroactively, or produce thousands of TONS of hazardous waste, all with ONE piece of legislation. Are you really sure you want to answer to that question?

    To accomplish what they propose, they would be REQUIRING that there be NO reloading. This would produce significantly more metals in need of recycling. Why would anyone in their right mind require that more money be spent collecting and melting down of brass, when the majority of the empty brass is currently reused? How many millions will that cost?

    Also in the line of reloading, estimates run from 25% to 50% of shooters reload ammunition. Most of those maintain enough components to handle about one year's shooting (they buy it on sale to save a large percentage of the shooting cost). The proposed legislation would either produce millions of felons, once again retroactively, or produce thousands of TONS of hazardous waste. You sure you want to answer to that question?

    - - - End "logic" against the proposal - - -

    The above paragraphs are an example of what could easily be said in E-mails to btaylor@gth-gov.com - the author of the proposed legislation template. i.e. BURY that clown in paperwork!

    If each person were to post any suggestions for additional logic to bury the proposals, we could all copy the ones we like, make a few modifications and add it to the E-mails we send to the legislators involved. Remember, when legislators receive "form" letters, they pay far less attention to them - when they receive letters that say mostly the same thing but are unique, they realize that there are a LOT of really annoyed and well organized people watching.

    Department of redundancy department, let's BURY these clowns in electronic paperwork. Remember, legislators are convinced that for EVERY comment they receive, there are at least ten others with the same opinion that have not written. Let's let them know just how likely they are to be voted OUT, the next election (I STRONGLY recommend that you NOT threaten them with that. It will be significantly more effective if they come to that conclusion by themselves).

  13. #13
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    If the anti's were amenable to logic, there would be next to no gun laws in existence. Virtually all of them have demonstrated histories of failing to accomplish--even moderately--what they were supposed to do.
    It is all emotional. And in a country where Obama could win on a candidacy of pure emotion, the rational side is all but doomed in most places.

  14. #14
    It's a first, but I agree with you ^.

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    Even if they do respond to emotion, when you bury them with logic, they still have to respond.

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    If I were a betting man, I would suspect that this patent is a likely suspect behind the bullet marking technology.

    US Patent Office

    United States Patent 7,143,697
    Mace , et al. December 5, 2006
    Apparatus and method for identifying ammunition

    Abstract

    The present invention is directed to identifying ammunition. In one embodiment, an identifiable ammunition cartridge includes a bullet having a first identification surface, a casing having a second identification surface, and an identifying code positioned on at least one of the first and the second identification surfaces. In another embodiment, a method for identifying ammunition includes selecting a first code portion and a second code portion, and combining the first code portion with the second code portion to form an identifier that may be applied to the ammunition. In still another embodiment, a method for tracking ammunition having an identifier includes storing the identifier and a corresponding identity of a first custodian in a data storage system, transferring the ammunition to a second custodian, associating the ammunition identifier with an identity of the second custodian, and storing the identity corresponding to the second custodian in the data storage system.
    Inventors: Mace; Steve (Seattle, WA), Ford; Russell H. (Seattle, WA)
    Assignee: Ravensforge LLC (Seattle, WA)

    The website for the company is http://ravensforge.com/

    I think a few polite e-mails to them asking them if they are affiliated with AmmunitionAccountability.org would be a useful next step.

    There are other potential patents that may lead to whomever is behind this effort, so it is not a given that these are the guys.

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    After doing a bit of checking, I found the following web site:
    http://www.ammocoding.com/index.php

    Interestingly enough, they have exactly the same address as http://ravensforge.com/ so they are the company that owns the technology and is pushing for its adoption.

    The company points out on their website that there are approximately 10 billion bullets sold in the US annually, so obviously if they could get this legislation passed, it would be a big boon for them. Their website makes the following statements:
    What are the costs to manufacturers?

    There are several well known manufacturers currently producing a significant portion of the current commercially available ammunition in the United States. Each ammunition producer would be required to purchase at least one, if not more, laser engraving machines and ammunition material handlers to produce ACS coded ammunition. There are several manufacturers who can design and build this equipment. Reliable estimates for a complete set of engraving/material handling equipment range from $300,000 to $500,000 each. A licensing fee for each bullet sold would also be required. However, since approximately 10 billion bullets are sold in the United States alone each year, equipment costs, once amortized over the number of bullets produced and sold are not significant.

    What is the impact on retailers and consumers?

    Ammunition retailers will also have some minor administrative costs. These costs, like other costs associated with doing business will most likely be passed onto the retailer purchaser. We estimate that the entire ACS process can be implemented without dramatically increasing the purchase price to the end user while maintaining an effective crime fighting system paid for almost exclusively by user fees.
    They claim that the equipment costs are not significant when amortized over a large number of bullets, but the licensing fee for each bullet along with the cost of laser engraving each bullet and each case is far from insignificant.

    Might I suggest that we, all, send this company an e-mail and specifically ask for details on what their licensing fee will be and what the estimate the engraving cost will be for each bullet. Their e-mail address is info@ammocoding.com

  18. #18
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    Yet another case of a company trying to enact legislation for their own gain. Politics as usual!
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  19. #19
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    That means that there are 10 TRILLION (200 million times fifty)
    time to bust out that handy calculator again.

    10 billion rounds of ammo.

  20. #20
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    If they refer to "bullet casings," they are too utterly ignorant to be allowed near ammunition manufacturing in any capacity.
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    We need some letter writing!

    I have been wondering about what can actually be done to stop these guys. I believe in the capitalist system just as much as the next guy, but I don't want companies making money by infringing my rights.

    As I understand it, the proposed legislation would call for all ammunition to be labeled or banned, and it would seek to eliminate the reloading industry altogether. With the required marking equipment, the time required to mark each bullet and each case, the additional costs to manufacturers, retailers, as well as the royalty costs per bullet (at this time, costs unknown), the price of ammo will probably increase anywhere from $0.01 to $0.25 per bullet (I'm being wildy optimistic about how little it could cost). Therefore, a brick of 22LR shells will increase a minimum of $5.00 per brick, and possibly $100.00 or more. Defensive ammo would undoubtedly increase by as much or more. And obviously the sponsors of such legislation intend to increase the costs so much that fewer people shoot and fewer people can afford to own, train with, and carry defensive weapons.

    So, since the clear result of this legislation will be to decrease the number of lawful people carrying firearms, I would suggest writing letters to the editor of the target states as well as to the legislators. For example:

    Citizens who carry firearms for their own defense on average stop or prevent between 700,000 and 2,500,000 violent crimes each year; 98% of the time not a shot is fired to bring this crime prevention benefit. The proposed Ammunition Encoding legislation will increase the cost of ammunition to the point that it will discourage some citizens (particularly the poor and disadvantaged) from owning, carrying, and training with defensive firearms.

    Based upon the estimates of the number of violent crimes stopped, if the legislation is enacted and ammunition prices increase as they surely will, fewer citizens will have and use firearms for their defense. If there is a 10% decrease in the number of law abiding citizens who carry, then we can expect between 70,000 and 250,000 more violent crimes to be committed each year. Therefore, rather than easing the workload of our police, this legislation will substantially increase it, while actually facilitating more violent crime on law abiding citizens.


    So, what do you think?

  22. #22
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    A look at the home site is instructive. They're trying to bill skateboarders as the End of Western Civilization As We Know It, and suggesting that cheap little castings or "a selection of planters" be bought to avert this tragedy...and they also sell stuff related to quilts.

    It's obviously some two-bit operation run by one guy, maybe two, and they've decided to go after fun and recreation as Bad Things that will pollute our Precious Bodily Fluids (okay, I'll stop with the sarcasm).

    I think putting the word out wider, and making sure our skateboarding compatriots are aware of it will help nip this in the bud.

    I'm going to request some literature from them. I wonder how much they have to spend on promotional material.

    But when it comes down to it, "they got nuthin'." I doubt their claimed patents on the technology would actually hold up in court--you can't patent a CONCEPT, you have to have something concrete to show, and they apparently don't.

    I'm going to see what I can do about having them stomped on by legitimate public opinion. I suggest others do, too.
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  23. #23
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    Amen to that.

    The other point is that there may well be some Anti-Gun money going into their organization. Their Ammunition Control site looks pretty good. I'm going to request some info, too, specifically asking for details on what the royalty costs will be for their patent and if they have some data as to how much it will cost to laser mark each bullet.

    I think we need to nip this proposal in the bud.. I wonder if any crimefighters have ever weighed in on whether bullet coding would actually help solve crime. Frankly, I don't think bad guys tend to spend money for bullets (particularly if they can steal them instead).

  24. #24
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    Some more detailed info here if you scroll down the page a little:

    http://www.voy.com/19385/3806.html
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  25. #25
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    serial

    theres no machinery to do this.they as much as said it."several companies have the tecknoligy to produce the machinery" its a scam all the way.get a state to vote it in.no one to do it.ergo no ammo to that state.
    evensville ammo plant made 12,500,000 rds of 45 acp a day.do you think they have a lase marker that would serialize that many cart and record them
    how do you keep the 50 cart together before you package them.bull.
    are they part of the anti gun gang???

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