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Thread: Massive Coordinated Terrorists Attacks in India

  1. #1

    Massive Coordinated Terrorists Attacks in India

    We had a thread going at the old THR about foreign travel and how one felt.
    Apparently, The FOE (Forces of Evil....did I just coin a new phrased acronym?) coordinated an attack on mainly British & American Tourists in what has been so far reported in foreign news wires as 11 different locations (I don't get my real news from the syndicate). So far the news is jumbled but also past the hysterical stage so we are getting garbled reports of between 80-250 murdered and 40 taken hostage.
    The FOE targeted known tourist hot spots (as usual) and tourists are easy targets.
    I don't know what the theme of this thread should be as I open it, I do know that trusting someone else with your life is usually a mistake, but we cannot blame tourists for not being armed, but do we blame them for being tourists who go through life without a care for their own safety knowing that terrorists occassionaly attack tourist locations usually in primitive countries (Egypt, Phillipines, Thailand) to name a few.
    Would you choose to go to a country whose main bulk of it's police force has less training than a Security Guard at Walmart?
    According to the report, the FOE used automatic weapons and grenades and if so, when multiplying this information with 11 tourist sites, then 80-250 murdered doesn't sound illogical.

  2. #2
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    Would you choose to go to a country whose main bulk of it's police force has less training than a Security Guard at Walmart?
    I would actually. I'll probably be the odd man out but I want to see the world. Is it the safest thing ever? Probably not but nothing in life is 100% and statistically I'll probably be fine. I would try to use some smarts though. I think I'd pass on egypt entirely at the moment. There are parts of the philippines that I would avoid...india though I'd probably be open to.

    Does that make me a little more adventerous or just a naive american?
    Every social movement (*snip*) that tries to break the bonds of mindless convention and tradition and that defies established privilege gets accused of being rude and worse, much worse, and there are always weak apologists for the status quo who use that pathetic etiquette excuse to try and silence the revolutionaries. Successful revolutionaries ignore the admonitions about which fork to use for their salad because they care only to grab the steak knife as they launch themselves over the table. -- Richard Dawkins

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    These days I would be extremely hesitant to travel to any foreign country, especially since I'm from the same state as every one's favorite president.

    I just had a friend move to England to get his doctorate in Mathmatics from Oxford. He was there maybe a week when some idiot threatened him when they found out where he was from and some of his redneck beliefs. He recently had a brain tumor removed, so he is relatively paranoid about taking any punishment to his head. He pulled out a knife in defense and made his retreat. Nothing more than showing the knife.

    Now he is back in the states and isn't allowed back in England. Tuition money down the drain. He is being charged for pulling a "sharp object."

    So my answer to the OP's question is no, and probably not very many places foreign, excluding those with beautiful beaches.
    "Today, my friends, we each have one day less, every one of us. And joy is the only thing that slows the clock." -John D McDonald via Travis McGee

  4. #4
    From google quoting the NYT


    November 27, 2008
    Dozens Reported Dead in India Attacks

    NEW DELHI — Coordinated terror attacks struck the heart of Mumbai, India’s commercial capital, Wednesday night, killing dozens in machine-gun and grenade assaults on at least two five-star hotels, the city’s largest commuter train station, a historic movie theater and a hospital. There were unconfirmed reports of hostages having been taken at one of the hotels.

    Mumbai police control room said at least 75 people had died and 240 injured, according to preliminary reports.

    Around midnight, more than two hours into the serial attacks, television images from near the Metro Cinema showed journalists and spectators ducking for cover as gunshots rang out. A fire raged inside the posh Oberoi Hotel, according to police. Television footage showed the charred shell of a car in front of Victoria Terminus railway station. A nearby gas station was blown up. The landmark Leopold’s Café, a favorite tourist haunt, was attacked.

    Around 1 a.m., two guests trapped inside the Taj hotel, next to the iconic Gateway of India, said by telephone they heard a fresh explosion and gunfire in the old wing of the hotel.

    Mumbai police said several senior officers were killed in the gun battles Wednesday night, including the head of the Anti-Terrorism Squad. The Indian home minister, Shivraj Patil, said shortly after 1:30 a.m. that two suspected attackers had been killed.

    India has been ripped by a succession of terror attacks over the last several months. Many of them were initially blamed on Islamist militants, although in recent weeks, police have pointed to a Hindu terror network as well, making several arrests. Even by the standards of terrorism in India, these attacks were particularly brazen. Instead of anonymously planted bombs, as in previous attacks, the assailants in this case were spectacularly well-armed and confrontational.

    The state’s highest ranking police official, A.N. Roy, said the attackers opened fire and disappeared.

    The Maharashtra State chief minister, Vilasrao Deshmukh, told the private CNN-IBN station that the military had been called in to assist the local police. He said there had been five to seven targets in the attacks, concentrated in the southern tip of the city, known as Colaba and Nariman Point.

    A 31-year-old man who was inside the Taj attending a friend’s wedding reception, said he was getting a drink around 9:45 p.m. when he heard what he said sounded like firecrackers — “loud bursts” interspersed with what sounded like machine gun fire.

    A window of the banquet hall shattered, guests scattered under tables, and they were quickly escorted to another room in the hotel, he said. No one was allowed to leave. Just before 1 a.m., another loud explosion rang out and then another about a half hour later, said the man inside the Taj.

    His friend, the groom, was two floors above him, in the old wing of the hotel, trapped in a room with his wife. One of the explosions, he said by telephone, took the door off its hinges. He blocked it with a table. Then came another, and gunfire throughout the evening.

    Local television stations reported that a British national, who escaped the Oberoi Hotel, said he saw about 15 gunmen, first demanding that American and British nationals turn over their passports and then refusing to let them out. There was no official confirmation. Indian Army soldiers arrived at the Oberoi shortly after 2 a.m.

    Mumbai, or Bombay as it is also known, has suffered several spectacular terror attacks in recent years. In 1993, a suspected Muslim organized crime network bombed the stock exchange, trains, hotels and gas stations, apparently in retaliation for Muslim deaths in religious clashes the year before; the bombings killed more than 250 and injured more than 1,000. In 2003, 52 people were killed in another set of bombings blamed on Muslim militants. In July 2007, a series of bombs planted inside commuter trains killed 187 people.

    In Washington, the State Department immediately condemned the attacks but said there were no immediate reports of American casualties.

    Reuters reported that a European official was among the wounded.

    “My hotel is surrounded by police and there are gunmen inside,” a European lawmaker, Ignasi Guardans, told Spanish radio from the Taj Hotel, according to Reuters. “We are in contact with some deputies inside the hotel, with one in a room and another hidden in the kitchen. There’s another official hurt and in hospital.”

    This is still a preliminary report, not a final tally.

  5. #5
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    Mumbai, or Bombay as it is also known
    I'm glad they set that straight - at first, I had no idea where they were talking about.

    Why do they have to keep re-naming places?
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

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    Why do they have to keep re-naming places?>>

    ...for the same reason that Saloth Sar changed his name to Pol Pot

    Phillip Morris is now known as Altria

    and why President Lisa Simpson's Tax hike is now called a "Temporary Refund Adjustment"

    Because of their tremendous reputation, the soldiers of the old guard were permitted liberties which would not have been tolerated in other units. When Napoleon met Tsar Alexander of Russia at Tilsit in 1807 he pointed to a terribly scarred Grenadier. "What do you think of men who can endure such wounds?" he asked. " and what do you think of men who can inflict them?" replied the Tsar. "They're all dead!" interjected the Grenadier, settling the issue once and for all.

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    You travel, you run a risk.
    If I were going anywhere soon I'd be brushing up on my Spanish or at least my accent.
    Is it too early to be paranoid about the inauguration in January?
    Everybody spread love

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    When I heard of the 2001 WTC attacks, the first thing I thought of after the shock wore off was:

    "We are all soldiers now."

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    Would you choose to go to a country whose main bulk of it's police force has less training than a Security Guard at Walmart?
    No, and I don't go to Wal Mart, either.
    No tyrant should ever be allowed to die a natural death.

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    Bombay was the imperalist British name for the place, so they renamed it due to the bad blood.
    יזכר לא עד פעם (Remember. Never Again.)

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    Some of our friends checking in: http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?t=5207
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    No, and I don't go to Wal Mart, either.
    I only go when I have to, and then only if I am Carrying.......
    "If it looks like a rabbit, and acts like a rabbit, it will be treated as such- prey for all predators.
    If it looks like a rabbit and bites like a rattlesnake, rabbits will be safer, and predators more reticent."

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    I have decided to travel only to places I am free to defend myself and my family in. This rules out most of the world these days, but since I am of modest means and have 5 children to feed, there is a lifetime's worth of travel in the Free World, even though it shrinks with each passing year........
    "If it looks like a rabbit, and acts like a rabbit, it will be treated as such- prey for all predators.
    If it looks like a rabbit and bites like a rattlesnake, rabbits will be safer, and predators more reticent."

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    It appears that the world is getting to be a nastier place all the time. Or perhaps, its always been that nasty and we've not paid attention because we've lead a sheltered existence for so long.
    Charter member PWU (Pud Whackers Unanimous!)

  15. #15
    Thanks Oleg, interesting forum.

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    My wife doesn't understand why I do things, like, planning a trip from Norfolk VA to Baton Rouge LA to Dallas TX, without having to go through Alabama, so we can CCW all the way, even though it will take a few hours longer. But she will catch on eventually.

    I would like to think that if I were one of those hotel guests, I could have gotten in a position to relieve one of those miscreants of his AK and introduced his friends to the other end.
    Paramedics save lives. Guns save lives. But Paramedics with guns scare people.

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    So youre trying to tell me that 6 U.S. and British deaths out of 125 all together killed is an attack specifically on them?

    Smells like fish to me.

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    Sounds like they need to budget in some armed guards at tourist places, with serious training and weapons. There was too much opportunity to get taken by surprise too, it seems. It's pretty bad when one of the heads of the anti-terror police gets whacked in action. I won't be taking any trips to that place, unless I have to, and I'm armed and have my own security detail that I've WATCHED do some training. Even then, I don't recall leaving anything in India that I can't live without here.
    Let's all stand together, so we won't have to stand apart later on.

    Freedom is worth the price. Count the cost.

  19. #19

    End of day two and it still hasn't ended

    Forces assault besieged Jewish center in Mumbai

    The Associated Press
    Friday, November 28, 2008
    MUMBAI, India: Security forces assaulted a Jewish center in Mumbai where Muslim militants were believed holed up with possible hostages Friday, with black-clad commandos dropping from a Indian helicopter as sharpshooters opened fire on the five-story building.

    The attack came as Indian commandoes scoured two luxury hotels room-by-room for survivors and holed-up militants, more than a day after a chain of attacks across India's financial center by suspected Muslim militants left at least 119 people dead.

    The well-coordinated strikes by small bands of gunmen starting Wednesday night left the city shell-shocked, but the sporadic gunfire and explosions at the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels dwindled overnight, indicating the siege might be winding down.

    At the headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch, a commando assault began shortly after dawn following a tense night in which six trucks of soldiers had been brought in to surround the building.

    Snipers stationed in buildings opposite the center began the attack, with sustained fire on the building as at least nine commandos lowered themselves by rope onto the roof from a circling Indian air force helicopter.

    Security forces searched the rooms at the hotels — two of the top gathering spots for the Mumbai elite — but there were no gunbattles or blasts. Commandos had spent much of Thursday bringing out hostages, trapped guests and corpses from the hotels in small groups while firefighters battled flames that erupted. The fires were out by Friday.

    State officials said 119 people had died and 288 were injured in the attacks.

    The gunmen were well-prepared, even carrying large bags of almonds to keep up their energy during the fight. Their main targets appeared to be Americans, Britons and Jews, though most of the dead seemed to be Indians and foreign tourists caught in the random gunfire.

    The gunmen — some of whom strode casually through their targets in khakis and T-shirts — clearly came ready for a siege.

    "They have AK-47s and grenades. They have bags full of grenades and have come fully prepared," said Maj. Gen. R.K. Hooda.

    Ratan Tata, who runs the company that owns the elegant Taj Mahal, said they appeared to have scouted their targets in advance.

    "They seem to know their way around the back office, the kitchen. There has been a considerable amount of detailed planning," he told a news conference.

    The Maharashtra state home ministry said dozens of hostages had been freed from the Oberoi and dozens more were still trapped inside. More than 400 people were brought out of the Taj Mahal on Thursday.

    Authorities said they had killed three gunmen at the Taj.

    It remained unclear just how many people had been taken hostage, how many were hiding inside the hotels and how many dead still lay uncounted.

    A U.S. investigative team was heading to Mumbai, a State Department official said Thursday evening, speaking on condition of anonymity because the U.S. and Indian governments were still working out final details. The official declined to identify which agency or agencies the team members came from.

    There were conflicting reports about hostages at the Jewish center. A diplomat closely monitoring the site said people were still being held there, though an Indian state official said earlier eight hostages had been released. Both sources spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.

    On Thursday morning, a woman, child and an Indian cook were led out of the building by police, said one witness. The child was identified as Moshe Holtzberg, 2, the son of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the main representative at Chabad house. The child was unharmed, but his clothes were soaked in blood.

    India has been shaken repeatedly by terror attacks blamed on Muslim militants in recent years, but most of them were coordinated bombings striking random crowded places: markets, street corners, parks.

    These attacks were more sophisticated — and more brazen.

    They began at about 9:20 p.m. with the shooters spraying gunfire across the Chhatrapati Shivaji railroad station, one of the world's busiest terminals. For the next two hours, there was an attack roughly every 15 minutes — the Jewish center, a tourist restaurant, one hotel, then another, and two attacks on hospitals. There were 10 targets in all.

    Indian media showed pictures of rubber dinghies found by the city's shoreline, apparently used by the gunmen to reach the area. Both of the luxury hotels targeted overlook the Arabian Sea, which surrounds the peninsula of Mumbai.

    At the Chhatrapati Shivaji railroad station, a soaring 19th century architectural monument, gunmen fired bullets through the crowded terminal, leaving the floor spattered with blood and corpses.

    "They just fired randomly at people and then ran away. In seconds, people fell to the ground," said Nasim Inam, a witness.

    Analysts around the world were debating whether the gunmen could have been tied to — or inspired by — al-Qaida.

    "It's clear that it is al-Qaida style," but probably not carried out by the group's militants, said Rohan Gunaratna, of the International Center for Political Violence and Terrorism Research in Singapore and author of "Inside Al-Qaida."

    Gunaratna said the attacks were a "watershed" for India, "because for the first time, the terrorists deliberately attacked international targets," he said, noting that symbolic high-profile targets had been chosen, apparently to magnify the effects of the violence.

    Indian media reports said a previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen claimed responsibility in e-mails to several media outlets. The Deccan is a region in southern India that was traditionally ruled by Muslim kings.

    Prime Minister Manmohan Singh blamed "external forces" for the violence — a phrase sometimes used to refer to Pakistani militants, whom Indian authorities often blame attacks on.

    Survivors of the hotel attacks said the gunmen had specifically targeted Britons and Americans.

    Alex Chamberlain, a British citizen dining at the Oberoi, told reporters that a gunman ushered 30 to 40 people from the restaurant into a stairway and ordered everyone to put up their hands.

    The gunmen "stopped once and asked, 'Where are you from? Any British or American? Show your ID.' My friend said, 'Tell them you're Italian.' And there I was with my hands up basically thinking I was in a lot of trouble."

    Chamberlain said he managed to slip away as the patrons were forced to walk upstairs.

    One victim was British-Cypriot Andreas Dionysiou Liveras, 73, the owner of a luxury yacht business, said the Cypriot foreign ministry and his brother, Theophanis Liveras.

    Andreas Dionysiou Liveras, who was attending a conference, had spoken to the British Broadcasting Corp. from a locked room inside the Taj Hotel before he was killed.

    "As we sat at the table we heard the machine gun fire outside in the corridor. We hid under the table and then they switched all the lights off. ... All we know is the bombs are next door and the hotel is shaking every time a bomb goes off," he said.

    Among the dead were at least four Australians and a Japanese, said the state home ministry. An Italian, a Briton and a German were also killed, according to their foreign ministries.

    At least three top Indian police officers — including the chief of the anti-terror squad — were among those killed, said Roy.

    Among those foreigners still held captive in all three buildings were Americans, British, Italians, Swedes, Canadians, Yemenis, New Zealanders, Spaniards, Turks, French, a Singaporean and Israelis.

    The United States, Pakistan and other countries condemned the attacks.

    The motive for the onslaught was not immediately clear, but Mumbai has frequently been targeted in terrorist attacks blamed on Islamic extremists, including a series of bombings in July 2006 that killed 187 people.

    Mumbai is one of the most populated cities in the world with some 18 million crammed into shantytowns, high rises and crumbling mansions.

    Relations between Hindus, who make up more than 80 percent of India's 1 billion population, and Muslims, who make up about 14 percent, have sporadically erupted into bouts of sectarian violence since British-ruled India was split into independent India and Pakistan in 1947.

    ___

    Associated Press writers Anita Chang, Erika Kinetz and Jenny Barchfield contributed to this report.

  20. #20
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    Aren't guns strictly controlled in India ???

    I suppose all those AK-47s were smuggled in from the USA after being bought at gunshows
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

  21. #21
    Thank you TP, a classic example of when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Where does one sign up tp be an outlaw?

  22. #22
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    "....walks like a duck..."

    There is a common connexion between the Somali pirates and the Bombay killers (they did not take hostages in order to negotiate demands) and it is not their head-gear or language (except for ONE phrase.) Now that the Bombay crisis is on the way to resolution, I have a suggestion on how to remedy the pirate situation.
    THIS WILL NOT WORK IF THE SHIPS STAY WILLFULLY DISARMED. They must fight the pirates, not simply dial "911." The effective distance of an RGP is approx 350 yds. And they will automatically detonate about 5~7 seconds after launch (my Viet Nam experience with them, and some do not self-detonate at all.) Thus, the ship must keep the potential boarders more than 350 yds away from the ship. Any good m16, .30-30, .308, or similar rifle, with scope, fired from the semi-stable platform of a ship can take out every member of the pirate boat at a safe distance. Reserve 12-gauge for close-up ranges. Return-fire from the small boat will be un-effective, or just plain lucky, while a half-dozen rifle-men on the large ship would devastate that small boat (aim for the helms-man first.) If enough attackers survived to yet attempt to board the ship, up-close-close-and-personal confrontation with 0x0 BUCK would dissuade them greatly. That, in addition to large glass-jugs of petrol dropped onto their hull and set off by tracer-rounds and ship-flares would round out the festival. There is one draw-back to the plan : if the hijackers begin to bring hostages along for the ride. Therefore, NONE of the pirates can be allowed to survive. Dead pirates tell no tales. And let a UAV take care of the trawler mother-ship. Zakhi.
    "Reticent" does not mean "reluctant" or "restrained."
    BRD has no cure; the treatment is just to buy more. (Black Rifle Disorder.)

  23. #23
    God forbid sir, are you suggesting personal responsibility?

  24. #24
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    Where does one sign up to be an outlaw?
    You won't have to sign up ...
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

  25. #25
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    You know ... there is just something secure about an armed populace. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

    Woody

    "The Right of the People to move about freely in a secure manner shall not be infringed. Any manner of self defense shall not be restricted, regardless of the mode of travel or where you stop along the way, as the right to keep and bear arms is so enumerated at both the beginning and end of any journey." B.E.Wood

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