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Thread: From The Airport That Brought You 9/11

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    From The Airport That Brought You 9/11

    Fed wannabe/medical supplies salesman flashed his assistant harbormaster badge, told the airline ticket agents and the state trooper at Bostonís Logan International he was an armed Homeland Security agent, and was escorted around TSA security checks onto the plane, where the flight crew helpfully pointed out who the air marshals were, FBI charges. Affidavit says imposter who claimed to have a gun was even let into the cockpit.

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    *facepalm* Unbelievable...
    Some people like seven grain bread . . . I like 230 grain lead.

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    Not really unbelieveable. Security systems will **always** be vulnerable to a good con job.
    The brain is the most unsafe weapon ever made.

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    Security systems will **always** be vulnerable to a good con job.
    Or even a bad one it seems
    Every social movement (*snip*) that tries to break the bonds of mindless convention and tradition and that defies established privilege gets accused of being rude and worse, much worse, and there are always weak apologists for the status quo who use that pathetic etiquette excuse to try and silence the revolutionaries. Successful revolutionaries ignore the admonitions about which fork to use for their salad because they care only to grab the steak knife as they launch themselves over the table. -- Richard Dawkins

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    Or even a bad one it seems
    Believability and plausibility have nothing to do with a good con job. It's all about confidence, acting natural, and playing to people's expectations.
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    The TSA bureaucracy consists of low-level clowns and managerial clowns. Those are the only job descriptions they have as far as I know.
    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
    "Well, the Constitution has not yet been pregnant." - Gore Vidal
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    The TSA bureaucracy consists of low-level clowns and managerial clowns. Those are the only job descriptions they have as far as I know.
    Sorry, but you left out all the mid-level clowns who supervise the assistant manager clowns.

    Many tax dollars. Many clowns. Much fun.
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    (sarcasm) Makes ME wanna pack up the fam and TRAVEL! (/sarcasm)
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    If it looks like a rabbit and bites like a rattlesnake, rabbits will be safer, and predators more reticent."

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    Advanced thread-drifting techniques ...

    A few months from now, I'll be taking a trip to Israel (a few weeks' working vacation); as I read my flight reservations, the only flight (of 6 in total) run by El Al is the one into Tel Aviv; I'd have prefered they all were. (Maybe the one out is less of a worry, though, since it'll benefit anyhow from the Israeli airport security even if it's run by Iberia.)

    U.S. airline security is an even worse joke than it needs to be. The very thin silver lining is that it might (might) give enough pause to a would-be hijacker-for-profit to discourage him; since 2001, though, it would be a pretty dim hijacker who'd rate high his odds of survival.

    If a hijacker's goals are related to martyrdom, though, and making people fear airline travel (and by extension, all kinds of other things), the TSA employees who have drawn my attention might just be additional incentive, and at least no *dis*incentive. Perhaps they're all decoys, while the *real* TSA guys watch from above ...

    Too bad there're no CCW reciprocity agreements between any U.S. state and Israel

    All this makes me think of the guns carried by the Air Marshall in the movie "Flightplan" (about which I'll not give more away); he has what I think was a Glock, and a small 1911-style pistol.

    (Which raised all kinds of question ... Do U.S. Air Marshalls carry Glocks? Do they carry (are they allowed to carry?) backup weapons? Caliber? Are there in fact U.S. Air Marshalls on flights departing from Germany to New York?)

    timothy

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    (Which raised all kinds of question ... Do U.S. Air Marshalls carry Glocks? Do they carry (are they allowed to carry?) backup weapons? Caliber? Are there in fact U.S. Air Marshalls on flights departing from Germany to New York?)
    I remember reading up on this but my Google-fu is weak tonight so I have no links, only my feeble memory.

    The Air Marshals do carry Glocks, model 22 I think. They are chambered in .40 S&W like all other federal LEOs. Much to the dismay of the officers themselves they also carry the same ammunition as all other federal LEOs, not something more suited to not pierce the hull of the craft.

    If air marshals are like other federal LEOs they would be in deep if found not carrying their weapon while on duty. They would also be in deep if found with a weapon other than that approved by the fedgov while on duty. I'm not sure if that rules out a BUG or not. I have friends that worked for the fedgov, I'll have to ask when I see them again.

    DHS does not say which flights routinely have marshals on board. Given the thin numbers of marshals compared to the number of flights the chances of having a marshal on board is quite low. There is rumor that the DHS has been fudging the numbers by having marshals take short flights, the ones of low risk of hijacking, so the the numbers of covered flights looks better to those paying the bills.

    Another interesting bit is that the cabin crew that took the armed crew member training are required to carry the same model weapon as air marshals.
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    And are required to put them in holsters with a retention lock IN the trigger guard...and require the crew to unload and holster before landing, leading to handling the weapon mid-flight and negligent discharges. Yeah, our security policies make a lot of sense.
    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
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    The Air Marshals do carry Glocks, model 22 I think. They are chambered in .40 S&W like all other federal LEOs. Much to the dismay of the officers themselves they also carry the same ammunition as all other federal LEOs, not something more suited to not pierce the hull of the craft.
    They carry SIG 229's in 357 SIG. I'm unaware of any Air Marshals being dismayed over the choice of issue ammunition, what they carry is perfectly suited to the mission and there is no need for any special ammo just because they may be shooting in a plane.
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    US Air Marshalls carry a SIG Sauer 229 in .357sig
    "ours is not to wonder why,
    ours is but to shoot the guy.

    GSGT RD, USMC circa 1982

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    TSA = Thousands Standing Around

    Next time I fly, I will walk up to counter and tell them my name is

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    IA farmboy wrote: "The Air Marshals do carry Glocks, model 22 I think. They are chambered in .40 S&W like all other federal LEOs. Much to the dismay of the officers themselves they also carry the same ammunition as all other federal LEOs, not something more suited to not pierce the hull of the craft."

    Umm, aircraft skin is very thin and a 5-year old can push a screwdriver through it. It would be just about impossible to design a handgun round that will injure/kill a Homo Sapiens but will not puncture the fuselage. And it's not a problem. You can put several hundred bullet holes in a plane before you will even notice the start of pressurization problems. The problems start if you take out a critical control system node (electrical, hydraulic or mechanical linkage), but commercial aircraft have enough redundancy that this is also a rare problem.

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    99% of our "security" all for the illusion of the masses. A co-worker rents an airplane hanger at a local airport. After 9/11 they fenced around the hanger and forced the private pilets to jump throught hoops to get in. But they refuse to put bars in the man-sized almost always dry culvert that you can walk right through.

    But the fence probably looks very impressive to the folks driving by.

    Airport security might be a little tigher than that fence. But the point of it is reallyfor the flying public.

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    This incident was three years ago. Since that time the requirements have changed making it impossible. Today permission to board is required through the NCIC system. Only an agency with access can get the required documents and codes required to board.

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    99% of our "security" all for the illusion of the masses.

    But the fence probably looks very impressive to the folks driving by.

    But the point of it is reallyfor the flying public.
    Several times lately I've seen the term "Security Theater" to describe what all the quasi-police security groups do. I think it is very accurate and only increasingly so as time goes on.

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    Bullet Holes

    You can put several hundred bullet holes in a plane before you will even notice the start of pressurization problems.
    Unless, of course, it's a .50 cal round fired from a Barret rifle at a plane flying five miles up above the shooter.

    Then, as anyone in the media can tell you, It'll bring the plane right down.

    People tend to forget that, during WWII, planes would fly out, take fire from opposing aircraft, and return to base well ventilated by 20mm rounds, often with chunks of airfoil and control surfaces shot away in the bargain.

    But a single .40 S&W round puncturing the fuselage of a modern airliner will cause explosive decompression and everyone will be sucked out through the finger-sized hole.

    I don't suppose anyone here remembers the plane that was transformed into a convertible and landed in Hawaii with the "top down" -- with all its passengers and crew?

    They were lucky. All that happened was the top came off. Now, if someone had discharged A FIREARM! on that plane, that would have been a disaster!

    Wow.

    We really are so fond of our mythologies.


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    That was an Aloha Air 737. One of the cabin crew were sucked out.

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    IA farmboy wrote: "The Air Marshals do carry Glocks, model 22 I think. They are chambered in .40 S&W like all other federal LEOs. Much to the dismay of the officers themselves they also carry the same ammunition as all other federal LEOs, not something more suited to not pierce the hull of the craft."

    Umm, aircraft skin is very thin and a 5-year old can push a screwdriver through it. It would be just about impossible to design a handgun round that will injure/kill a Homo Sapiens but will not puncture the fuselage. And it's not a problem. You can put several hundred bullet holes in a plane before you will even notice the start of pressurization problems. The problems start if you take out a critical control system node (electrical, hydraulic or mechanical linkage), but commercial aircraft have enough redundancy that this is also a rare problem.
    I recall reading an article on how certain frangible rounds would be quite lethal and yet not pierce the hull of an aircraft. At least that is what a group of air marshals believed.

    I also realize that an aircraft is leaky and requires constant pumping to maintain a comfortable pressure inside while at cruising altitude. A few more holes wouldn't make much of a difference to the pressure in the plane or the integrity of the hull. What I have read is that the frangible ammunition would be much less likely to damage vital components inside the craft such as wiring, hydraulics, or control cables.

    I'm not sure who to believe on the effectiveness of frangible ammunition and the damage it will (or will not) do to an aircraft. I also heard that the federal law enforcement agencies issued sidearms chambered in only .40S&W or 9mm. I could be wrong, it won't be the first time.

    A quick look at Wikipedia and I see that they list a number of fedgov agencies that use .357 SIG, including the federal air marshals. Learned something new today.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG
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    We should replace the TSA with an army of grannies in wheelchairs wielding umbrellas.
    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
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    I don't suppose anyone here remembers the plane that was transformed into a convertible and landed in Hawaii with the "top down" -- with all its passengers and crew?
    This both scares and excites me.
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