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Thread: What to do? THIS is a scary scenerio

  1. #1
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    What to do? THIS is a scary scenerio

    MODS:if I posted in the wrong area, please forgive me and move it.

    My guess is a LOT more of this type of robbery is going to happen, due to economy.

    WHAT to do? ONCE you are prone it could be "lights out" cause some POS just felt like shooting people.

    Let's have an intelligent discussion, please.

    3 shot in "takeover robbery" at Dunkin' Donuts in west Delray

    By JASON SCHULTZ

    Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

    Wednesday, November 26, 2008

    UPDATED: 2:55 a.m. November 27, 2008

    DELRAY BEACH — Three people were shot in what police described as a brutal "takeover robbery" at a Dunkin' Donuts Wednesday night.

    All three victims, including one man described as being in his 70s, have been taken to local hospitals and are expected to recover from their wounds, police say.

    "This could have been horrible. This is horrible. It could have been so much worse," said Delray Beach Police spokesman Jeff Messer.

    After interviewing witnesses, police said they believe that as many as four armed men burst into the Dunkin' Donuts at 4800 W. Atlantic Ave. at Whatley Road after 10 p.m. and told the customers to get down on the floor. There were six to eight customers in the store at the time.

    At least two of the robbers were armed with handguns and another had a shotgun. The men rifled through the pockets of the customers as one of the men cleaned out the store's register, Messer said. While they were leaving, the man with the shotgun started firing off shots at the customers on the ground, hitting two of them.

    "There was nothing to provoke him," Messer said. "He just started firing."

    The robbers left the store and started to run east. A man driving a white Chevy Lumina south on Whatley Road flashed his high beams as they ran across his path and the robbers fired, hitting the man. His car could be seen by the side of Whatley Road early this morning as investigators went around it looking for clues.

    Two of the victims were taken to Delray Medical Center and underwent surgery, said Capt. Jeff Goldman. All three victims were in stable condition this morning.

    Police set up a perimeter, blocking off Atlantic Avenue from Military Trail east for several block for nearly three hours. It included a residential neighborhood south of the Dunkin' Donuts. A Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office helicopter circled continuously overhead as officers searched the neighborhood with dogs early into the morning. They were unable to locate any of the robbers.

    Several residents, including Brian Moore, arrived home and were not allowed into the neighborhood. They watched the investigation from a shopping center parking lot for hours, waiting to get back in their homes.

    Moore said he went through the drive-thru lane of the Dunkin' Donuts earlier in the night but did not see anything suspicious. Residents who were in the parking lot were allowed to go home after 1 a.m.
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  2. #2
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    Seems to me a donut shop is a dangerous place to rob....

  3. #3
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    WHAT to do?
    I'm maybe going to die.

    If they start going through everyone's pockets, they're going to discover I'm armed. The likelihood that they will then assume I'm an UC or off-duty cop (or just some other trouble-maker) and shoot me is d-mn high.

    So I'm probably going to pick a moment to start shooting; closest guy first, with Mr. Shotgun a high-priority target.

    And I do NOT like my odds.

    (This is why I always scope out the rear exits, and sit near there. And stay out of donut shoppes.)
    Last edited by Loosedhorse; November 27th, 2008 at 10:24 PM. Reason: sp

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    I would do exactly as I would if this was more than a robbery but instead was a terrorist attack.
    Read this- http://feveredrants.blogspot.com/200...5_archive.html .
    Frightening isn't it?
    As I see it there are few differences in the opening seconds of a "takeover robbery" and a terrorist attack as described in the link. So I will follow this advice,
    In my opinion the best time to act is most likely to be at the initiation of the attack. Once the terrorists are consolidating on the objective it will be very difficult to take effective action. You must plan on providing effective resistance at the first opportunity! Shoot, move and communicate. Seek cover, use your weapon as required. Attempt to acquire a better weapon system at the first opportunity (do you know how to place an AK into operation?)
    As soon as I see one or more hostile signs such as the display of weapons I'm going to draw and fire. Hopefully I can shortcircuit the attack before they can get a foothold and manage to "takeover" the place where I'm doing business. I know for sure that I'm as good as dead if they start searching people and my gun is found.

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    "There was nothing to provoke him," Messer said. "He just started firing."
    Not true. What so-called "provokes" criminals is the belief they can get away with anything and everything. That belief has been heavily reinforced by decades of revolving door so-called "justice."

    What goes around will inevitably come back around.
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    I'll second Standing Wolf.
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    About the only viable option, other than trying to book it for the back door (and leaving everyone else to get shot), is to immediately open fire on them as they enter. Your odds are going to suck (particularly if you're not carrying a reload), but the only other alternative is to hope they merely wound and not kill you.

    Hoping to pick up weapons and use advanced blah blah tactics isn't going to happen. Things like that are over in a matter of seconds, and either they sustain casualties and leave, or else you get shot.
    "Training errors are recorded on paper. Tactical errors are etched in stone." -Erwin Rommel
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    I'd try to get in a position where their attention would not be focused on me. Then I'd try and double-tap each in the chest, starting with the biggest threat (probably the shotgun). Realistically, this could be done in about 4 seconds, which might be too fast for them to effectively react. Then, I'd shoot until none were a threat any longer.

    That's a tough situation and the chances would be high that you would get injured. Still, who knows what would happen. Some crooks run and hide when they are met with armed resistance.

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    While this thread may well find itself in the Strategy and Tactics subforum ...

    Da_ _ed if you do and Da_ _ed if you don't.

    Seek best available cover and hope your a better shot then they are. Also, you might hope that at least one other person (other than the perps) in the store is also armed and joins the fray.

    You, by yourself, you may prevail, but odds are you will have a puncture of two in your hide, and there is a good probability that you just might not survive. Going up against a shotgun "sucks" on the odds side.

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    Hmm, four guys, all armed, one with a shotgun, in a crowded room of people. Not very good odds any way you look at it. I'd second the bug out sentiment here. Short of that, it's take good cover and shoot until the threat disappears or you're dead.
    As for double tapping all of them in the chest in under 4 seconds, this isn't an IDPA stage.

  11. #11
    This is truly what all CHL owners need to worry about, armed multiple perps. OP is right, this is going to happen more frequently as our economy tanks. Ferfal, our member from Argentina explains it best.
    One can't count on these things ending as peacefully as it did, many times the customers are hearded in the back and killed. How do you know what is going to happen? I wouldn't take a chance and being in total fear of my life would probably shoot. I prefer to go with blood on my lips, a gun in hand and defiance in my heart to getting onto a cattle car to a place that says "Arbeit macht frei"

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    Actually, double taps are not recomended in that scenario.

    From everything I've been taught, when you are up against multiple attackers you should be trying for 1 hit (with 1 shot) then move to the next target.

    I think it has something to do with group dynamics and the (theory/idea) that a wounded person who is part of a group is more likely to become less aggressive / dangerous compared to thier associates.

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    Thugs are cowards at heart... it's only when the odds are their way that they'll stay and bully people.

    While you can never, ever count upon it the odds are pretty darn good they'll cut and run the moment gunfire against them enters the picture. They don't know who's shooting... or how many... they just don't want to be the target.

    You... or other innocents...may die as a result of your defensive action... but I'd play the odds and bet against it. Human nature is pretty strong.

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    "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work Brings Freedom) was the sign over the gates of Auschwitz. It was placed there by Major Rudolf Hoss, commandant of the camp.

    well said GEORGE29
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  15. #15
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    Provided the environment allows, immediately double tap 2 of them and take cover. Pray that the other 2 either leave, or that you can find a safe route to quickly take out the remaining aggressors.

    I know everything changes when it actually happens, but in my head, that seems like the best plan.

    Another good argument for open carry though. You wouldn't have to fiddle with a shirt getting in the way of a fast draw.
    “When you understand the nature of a thing, you know what it is capable of.”
    -Miyamoto Musashi

    "Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loosedhorse
    I'm maybe going to die.

    If they start going through everyone's pockets, they're going to discover I'm armed. The likelihood that they will then assume I'm an UC of off-duty cop (or just some other trouble-maker) and shoot me is d-mn high.

    So I'm probably going to pick a moment to start shooting; closest guy first, with Mr. Shotgun a high-priority target.

    And I do NOT like my odds.
    That pretty well sums it up.

    You might have a slim chance of drawing "against the drop" if there's only a single adversary. If you're facing two handguns and a shotgun, your best plan is to make peace with the deity of your choice ASAP and start praying.

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    It would seem like a good argument against open carry: you become an obvious target if they notice you.

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    Loosedhorse and yale both have it figured out.

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    As for double tapping all of them in the chest in under 4 seconds, this isn't an IDPA stage.
    I just shot a USPSA match last weekend so I have competitive shooting on the brain.

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    It would seem like a good argument against open carry: you become an obvious target if they notice you.
    It's actually a both ways argument. Spotting your openly carried gun, the criminals might change their minds, or might single you out first.

    The fly in the ointment is that criminals don't reason. Predicting their behavior in any given situation is pointless.
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  21. #21
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    One criminal might change his mind. Four criminals well armed will make you a priority.

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    I grew up right down the street from there. Went to High School at Atlantic High. Sad times at home it would appear.

    The big move here is situational awareness. Paying attention to what is going on all the time. If your first realization that there is a problem is these guys busting through the door, they're hyped and ready... you aren't, odds are you are going to lose. If you see them in the parking lot, four two-footed troubles with pistols and a shotgun, you have a chance to set your mind and formulate coherent action. Re-action will get you dead. If you have a chance to meet them in the doorway, from behind some kind of cover, with aimed fire, you MIGHT have a chance. Otherwise you're just hoping not to show up at Valhalla's hall without a dog to go at your feet.

    John

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    One criminal might change his mind. Four criminals well armed will make you a priority.
    Perfectly true -- and the proof of it is, cops carry openly and you can't hardly walk down the street for all the dead cops lying around.

  24. #24
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    You're right.
    Four armed criminals rolling up on a Dunkin Donuts (where else?) will just turn tail and run when they spot a blue uniform.
    That's why there are no police fatalities from armed criminals.

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    This sort of thing makes me glad that I stay at or near home most of the time. I'm more likely to get jumped by a cougar than robbers.
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

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