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Thread: Oppose .50 Caliber BMG Sniper Rifle

  1. #1

    Oppose .50 Caliber BMG Sniper Rifle

    Oppose .50 Caliber BMG Sniper Rifle
    Issue: Modern semiautomatic .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles are weapons designed for military use that combine long range, accuracy, and massive power. Intended for use in combat situations, these weapons can penetrate structures and destroy or disable light armored vehicles, radar dishes, helicopters, stationary airplanes, and other “high-value” military targets. The Branch Davidian cult in Waco, Texas, Al Qaeda, the Irish Republican Army, street and motorcycle gangs in California, Missouri and Indiana, and various militia groups and criminals across the United States are all documented as having possessed or used modern .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles.

    AHSA supports legislative efforts to regulate .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles in the same manner as machine guns are regulated under the provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934.

    The modern .50 caliber BMG rifle is one of the most powerful and destructive weapons legally available to civilians in the United States. A modern .50 caliber BMG rifle can hit a target accurately from distances of 1,000 to 2,000 yards, depending on the skill of the shooter, and can reach targets at a longer range with less accuracy. At significantly closer distances, these rifles are much more destructive and able to blast through solid concrete at 200 yards or penetrate an inch of armor plate at 300 yards.

    The destructive power of the modern .50 caliber rifle can be intensified by the use of various types of ammunition that is available commercially. In addition to the standard "ball" round of .50 caliber ammunition, armor-piercing, incendiary, and combination armor-piercing and incendiary ammunition for the modern .50 caliber rifles can significantly enhance the destructive capacity, particularly against chemical and industrial facilities and civil aviation targets.

    Despite their deadly power, or possibly because of it, .50 caliber rifles in various configurations are proliferating on the civilian firearms market and in many states are subject to less regulation than handguns. Because .50 caliber rifles are classified as long guns under federal law, they can legally be purchased by an 18 year old (unless state law restricts such purchases). 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1), (c)(1).

    Modern .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles possess no reasonable utility for hunting or self-defense. Design modifications over the past few years have made some .50 caliber rifles lighter and easier to transport. In addition, the once high cost of these guns has dropped with its increase in popularity—prices for new .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles, traditionally in the $4,000 to $7,000 range, have dropped to under $2,000 according to some gun magazines and internet sites.

    The .50 caliber BMG’s popularity lies not just with target shooters, but criminals, gangs and terrorists as well.

    According to the Office of Special Investigations of the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms gun traces involving 50 caliber sniper rifles have “identified some examples of criminal misuse of the .50 caliber rifle with a nexus to terrorism, outlaw motorcycle gangs, international and domestic drug trafficking, and violent crime.” U.S. General Accounting Office. Availability of .50 Caliber Semiautomatic Rifles, 30 June 1999. For additional information, please see the GAO’s Office of Special Investigations briefing report on .50 Caliber Rifle Crime.

    Under federal law, firearms sellers who do not possess a federal firearm license can sell 50 caliber rifles to individuals at gun shows and elsewhere without performing a background check on the purchaser. Although some states (such as California, Massachusetts, and New Jersey) regulate private sales and prohibit all sales of firearms without a background check on the purchaser, in most states terrorists and other criminals can easily acquire a .50 caliber BMG sniper rifle.

    Currently, .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles are not regulated at the federal level. Legislation has been introduced that would bring the gun under the jurisdiction of the National Firearms Act, which regulates machine guns, short-barreled rifles, short-barreled shotguns, and destructive devices. To date, there has been no movement on this legislation.

    In September 2004, California became the first state to regulate .50 caliber BMG rifles. Effective January 1, 2005, .50 caliber BMG rifles will fall under California’s Assault Weapons Control Act, Cal. Penal Code §§ 12275-12277, 12280 et seq., which will generally prohibit the weapons' manufacture, sale, importation and possession without registration.

    Currently, Maryland is the only other state that in some manner regulates the .50 caliber rifle, classifying the "Barrett light .50 cal. semi-auto" as an assault weapon. Md. Public Safety Code § 5-101(p)(2)(ix). Several other states - Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York and Virginia - have considered legislation to regulate this type of weapon.

    In the 1920s lightweight fully automatic firearms (machine guns) were available for sale to the general public. Private ownership of machine guns became an issue after the prohibition of liquor in 1919. Prohibition was followed by an increase in organized crime, which involved the use of submachine guns, especially the Thompson .45 caliber, nicknamed the "Tommy Gun".

    Following passage of restrictions on fully automatic firearms in several states, the administration of the newly elected president, Franklin D. Roosevelt proposed federal restrictions on the civilian possession and ownership of machine guns. The result of FDR`s efforts was the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934, (NFA). That law, which was supported by the NRA, requires that before a private citizen may take possession of a fully-automatic firearm they must pay a $200 tax to the Internal Revenue Service, be approved by ATF to own the firearm, and the gun must registered with the federal government.

    In 1986, Congress approved the NRA sponsored Firearms Owners` Protection Act (FOPA). ATF has interpreted provisions of FOPA as a prohibition on the civilian possession of all machine guns manufactured after May 19, 1986. The effect of the interpretation has been to "freeze" the number of privately owned machine guns available for private ownership.

    Since the passage of the NFA in 1934, crimes committed with machine guns are almost nonexistent

  2. #2
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    Oppose .50 Caliber BMG Sniper Rifle
    Issue: Modern semiautomatic .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles are weapons designed for military use that combine long range, accuracy, and massive power.
    The issue is started with a false premise; that the rifle was designed for military use. It wasn't. It was designed for a small but active group of long range target shooters. Yes, there were other rifles capable of 1,000 yard accuracy, but this group wanted more. One of the answers came from Ronny Barrett's fertile mind; the M82 rifle. Combined with a modern scope, it was capable of accurate shots to one mile or better. With the US' entry into Iraq and Afghanistan, the need to reach out and touch someone became even more apparent. This need was quickly filled by the adoption of the civilian target rifle made by Barrett and other .50BMG rifles.

  3. #3
    Sam, I bet you know the NRA's secret hand shake. orchidhunter

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    We're going to take this one paragraph at a time.

    Issue: Modern semiautomatic .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles are weapons designed for military use that combine long range, accuracy, and massive power. Intended for use in combat situations, these weapons can penetrate structures and destroy or disable light armored vehicles, radar dishes, helicopters, stationary airplanes, and other “high-value” military targets. The Branch Davidian cult in Waco, Texas, Al Qaeda, the Irish Republican Army, street and motorcycle gangs in California, Missouri and Indiana, and various militia groups and criminals across the United States are all documented as having possessed or used modern .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles.
    So is my bolt action .50 OK? Are you only worried about Semi's? Words have meanings so you should be carefull with the ones you use. Your first sentence is already clouding your idea. Also, While I know that some of those orginazations have been found to have some, I'd be very interested in any report of one having been used, for a crime, in the US.

    AHSA supports legislative efforts to regulate .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles in the same manner as machine guns are regulated under the provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934.
    Yeah, well that pretty much tells you where the AHSA stands doesn't it?

    The modern .50 caliber BMG rifle is one of the most powerful and destructive weapons legally available to civilians in the United States. A modern .50 caliber BMG rifle can hit a target accurately from distances of 1,000 to 2,000 yards, depending on the skill of the shooter, and can reach targets at a longer range with less accuracy. At significantly closer distances, these rifles are much more destructive and able to blast through solid concrete at 200 yards or penetrate an inch of armor plate at 300 yards.
    No it's not. This statement is flat out wrong. Off the top of my head I can come up with 2 or 3 more powerful weapons available to civilians. Cannon and a 30mm rifle come to mind. I'm also pretty sure that some .338 loadings have more ME then the .50BMG round. So you're just lying in the first sentance. In the second it's less a bald lie, then an obfuscation. Define "target" If it's a building, yeah with some work, practice, and skill a good shooter can hit one at 2000 yds. Much smaller then that and you're pushing it for actual effectivness. 1000yd shots on point targets are HARD. 2000yd shots on point targets with a .50? There's probably less then 1000 people in the world that can do that. And that's not even getting into the fact that the BC of a .50 BMG round is not that great, and there's other rifles out there that are better and don't drop like a rock in the 1000-2000yd range. So all your "ban" would do is force criminals to buy the more effective rifle.

    Despite their deadly power, or possibly because of it, .50 caliber rifles in various configurations are proliferating on the civilian firearms market and in many states are subject to less regulation than handguns. Because .50 caliber rifles are classified as long guns under federal law, they can legally be purchased by an 18 year old (unless state law restricts such purchases). 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1), (c)(1).
    Yep, because they *are* a rifle.

    Modern .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles possess no reasonable utility for hunting or self-defense. Design modifications over the past few years have made some .50 caliber rifles lighter and easier to transport. In addition, the once high cost of these guns has dropped with its increase in popularity—prices for new .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles, traditionally in the $4,000 to $7,000 range, have dropped to under $2,000 according to some gun magazines and internet sites.
    I don't need a hunting or self defense use. Allthough I know people that do hunt with a .50BMG. (That would make that another lie, for those keeping score). They are lighter now. You can reasonably get one down to...oh 35lbs or so. Pocket Carry comes next right? And I cheaped out on glass and still paid right around $2200 all said and done. I think you'd have a hard time actually hitting $2000 still.

    According to the Office of Special Investigations of the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms gun traces involving 50 caliber sniper rifles have “identified some examples of criminal misuse of the .50 caliber rifle with a nexus to terrorism, outlaw motorcycle gangs, international and domestic drug trafficking, and violent crime.” U.S. General Accounting Office. Availability of .50 Caliber Semiautomatic Rifles, 30 June 1999. For additional information, please see the GAO’s Office of Special Investigations briefing report on .50 Caliber Rifle Crime.
    The instances I'm aware of were all .50's found among other things at bad peoples houses. It seems that gangs found out quickly that 50lbs of rifle and ammo that recoil something fierce aren't suitable to their uses. If you have evidence of criminal misuse, caused by the rifle and not a human choosing to act anti-social, then definatlly let us know here. Since you're a proven liar though, please cite a good source.

    Under federal law, firearms sellers who do not possess a federal firearm license can sell 50 caliber rifles to individuals at gun shows and elsewhere without performing a background check on the purchaser. Although some states (such as California, Massachusetts, and New Jersey) regulate private sales and prohibit all sales of firearms without a background check on the purchaser, in most states terrorists and other criminals can easily acquire a .50 caliber BMG sniper rifle.
    We covered this in the Private Property Rights Loophole thread.

    Currently, .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles are not regulated at the federal level. Legislation has been introduced that would bring the gun under the jurisdiction of the National Firearms Act, which regulates machine guns, short-barreled rifles, short-barreled shotguns, and destructive devices. To date, there has been no movement on this legislation.

    In September 2004, California became the first state to regulate .50 caliber BMG rifles. Effective January 1, 2005, .50 caliber BMG rifles will fall under California’s Assault Weapons Control Act, Cal. Penal Code §§ 12275-12277, 12280 et seq., which will generally prohibit the weapons' manufacture, sale, importation and possession without registration.

    Currently, Maryland is the only other state that in some manner regulates the .50 caliber rifle, classifying the "Barrett light .50 cal. semi-auto" as an assault weapon. Md. Public Safety Code § 5-101(p)(2)(ix). Several other states - Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York and Virginia - have considered legislation to regulate this type of weapon.
    And some very smart lawyers are working on CA's gun laws one at a time right now. I'm sure the .50 ban is on that list somewhere. Turns out a lot of them are probably unconstitutional. I know!! Who knew, right? But maybe we should see if they're legal before we pass more? Also, any word on the effectivness of CA's ban? (Hint: Google .510DTC)

    In the 1920s lightweight fully automatic firearms (machine guns) were available for sale to the general public. Private ownership of machine guns became an issue after the prohibition of liquor in 1919. Prohibition was followed by an increase in organized crime, which involved the use of submachine guns, especially the Thompson .45 caliber, nicknamed the "Tommy Gun".

    Following passage of restrictions on fully automatic firearms in several states, the administration of the newly elected president, Franklin D. Roosevelt proposed federal restrictions on the civilian possession and ownership of machine guns. The result of FDR`s efforts was the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934, (NFA). That law, which was supported by the NRA, requires that before a private citizen may take possession of a fully-automatic firearm they must pay a $200 tax to the Internal Revenue Service, be approved by ATF to own the firearm, and the gun must registered with the federal government.

    In 1986, Congress approved the NRA sponsored Firearms Owners` Protection Act (FOPA). ATF has interpreted provisions of FOPA as a prohibition on the civilian possession of all machine guns manufactured after May 19, 1986. The effect of the interpretation has been to "freeze" the number of privately owned machine guns available for private ownership.
    I Know, I know. It bothers me too. We're going to work on it after the CA, NY and IL laws get shot down. Paitence, my friend. I'm not sure what it has to do with .50's though.

    Since the passage of the NFA in 1934, crimes committed with machine guns are almost nonexistent
    This despite the fact that there are more legal machine guns in the US then in 1934. Weird huh? Maybe Machine guns don't cause crime. Correlation =/= causation and all that.

    Now. Because this is activism, and we're supposed to have a plan, here's mine:

    Orchidhunter: You obviously didn't write this drivel. It's about 5 grade levels above your other posts. (I'm sure the plagerism was unintentional, you just forgot to cite, right?) Why don't you go find whoever did write it and bring them here. We can then go over why this is a silly and ineffective idea for reducing crime. If he want's to come to FL I'll take him to the range and let him squeeze off a few .50BMG rounds so that he can see it's not a super-crazy kill-the-world uberweapon. It's pretty fun to shoot though. In fact that's my suggestion. Anyone that has a .50 let lots of other people shoot it. The only reason people buy this junk is they have no factual basis for reference. .50's are still pretty rare. We need to fix that too.


    (***Note to mods: I know, I know, DFTTs. But I am optimistic that a lurker or two will read this and know lies and exaggerations the next time he or she reads them.)


    ETA: Oh and I almost forgot. It's the ".50BMG Caliber". The caliber name is ".50BMG" to diferentiate it from the othe .50 caliber loads out there. Like Magazines and clips it's a small but important detail.

  5. #5
    dogmush , It is one of our legislative alerts, here is a link http://www.huntersandshooters.org/is...ghts/50caliber, check out all of our site. orchidhunter

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    Since that's your only response, shall I take the rest of my points as conceeded?

    If so, when shall I pencil you and Mr. Schoenke in for a .50 shoot? I would love to correct the misconceptions you and he have on the .50BMG round. It's not your fault, you probably just haven't been taught correctly. They're really not that scary. You'll need to get to Manatee Gun and Archery Club in Central FL, I'll spot you each 5 rds, and let you borrow the rifle. If you want to shoot more (and you will, it's seriously fun) BYOA.

    Education is the cure for 99% of misguided acts.

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    Oh, and thank you for the link, but I have checked out AHSA. I don't hunt anymore, and your orginization and I differ greatly on what we feel the purpose of the 2nd ammendment is.

    And you're trying to ban one of my guns.

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    Don't Feed the Troll. He's constantly posting crap from the AHSA, or the Brady Folks.
    Move along move along. Nothing to see here.

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    orchid - you're back again? I thought you and your snake oil medicine show left town last week. Do you realize no one here buys your AHSA crap?

    And by the way, no one is fooled by you calling yourselves American Hunters & Shooters Association. It's about at thinly disguised as the KKK would be if they renamed themselves "People for Equal Rights".
    It's 2 AM....do you know where your rights are?

    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams

    megaboraphobia n. The fear of large calibers

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    BTW, I wonder what it would do to crime if the ONLY weapon that existed was a .50 BMG rifle?
    It's 2 AM....do you know where your rights are?

    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams

    megaboraphobia n. The fear of large calibers

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    Actually, I support the .50 BMG sniper rifle. I think our military (the only folks I know of who ever use the .50 to snipe) deserve to have this weapon if they find it useful to their mission of protecting the US.

    Further, it would be useless to bar the military from the use of a .50 sniper rifle. All that would happen is some enterprising quartermaster or procurement officer would arrange to "liberate" a civilian .50 BMG sporting rifle, as well they should.

    I also support the use of the .50 BMG rifle by those few civilian police units who feel the .50 is important for bomb disposal, vehicle disabling, whatever (even though this isn't exactly "sniper" use). It is certainly a good thing and reassuring to me that we have a ready supply of civilian .50 sporting rifles, in case some nuts try to ban .50 sniper rifles for the military, or .50 anti-materiel rilfes for police.

    In fact, I think that we should get "stimulus money" to support the private citizen purchase of .50 sporters--just to head off this type of wrong-headed tragedy. Once again, our civilian ownership of rifles--by private citizens--will rescue us, as it always had.

    Appreciate your alerting us to the danger posed to our military, our police--and of course, by extension, the gun-owning private citizen--by those nuts would would try to ban this utilitarian (AND FUN!) rifle, just to try to weaken our great country.

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    The .50 caliber BMG’s popularity lies not just with target shooters, but criminals, gangs and terrorists as well.

    According to the Office of Special Investigations of the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms gun traces involving 50 caliber sniper rifles have “identified some examples of criminal misuse of the .50 caliber rifle with a nexus to terrorism, outlaw motorcycle gangs, international and domestic drug trafficking, and violent crime.” U.S. General Accounting Office. Availability of .50 Caliber Semiautomatic Rifles, 30 June 1999. For additional information, please see the GAO’s Office of Special Investigations briefing report on .50 Caliber Rifle Crime.
    Is this the best the AHSA can come up with as a reason to ban .50 caliber rifles? A document from August 4th, 1999? The truly amusing thing is the second name on the document, lots of credibility there.

    http://archive.gao.gov/paprpdf2/162586.pdf

    Did you even bother to read this report? I did. All FOUR pages of it. The report states that a nexus has been established to terrorist groups, outlaw motorcycle gangs, international drug cartels, blah, blah, blah. Out of a total of 2839 Barrett rifles sold by that time they were able to cite a whopping half page of incidents in which a .50 was somehow involved. My favorites included the doomsday cult and the mentally ill man who shot a Michigan LEO. They found a .50 cal rifle at his home. That was purchased legally. And not used in a crime.

    If you find yourself posting articles that cite nearly 10 year old, 4 page long reports as proof that something needs to be banned shouldn't you really find a new cause? Or do a little more research? Or maybe just shut the heck up until you can do better than that?
    I repeat - some people are just itching to get their panties in a wad about something. And this is why I normally stay out of Legal. <sigh>
    Don't think we are going to take your handguns from you, were just going to limit the number of rounds they will hold. orchidhunter

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    Anybody got the time?

    Wait, I got it;

    It's Oh-ban-thirty.
    Jahwarrior said: I could've given them my ID, but I am right, and obstinate about being so. so, yes,I could've ended it by just cooperating, but that would have hypocritical, lazy, and cowardly.

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    A little bit of truth about the .50 caliber here;

    http://keepandbeararms.com/informati...em.asp?ID=2762

    Some truly amusing "oh noes, a .50 caliber, the sky is falling" from a site appropriately named "50 Caliber Terror".


    http://www.50caliberterror.com/index2.html

    Here is an example of what 50 Caliber Terror has come up with as justification for banning the .50. The bolding in the text is mine.

    ORANGE CITY — There was a slight tremor in Sgt. Greg Lariscy’s voice as he talked about rescuing a fellow officer who was shot Wednesday during a daylong ordeal that left three people dead in a double murder-suicide.

    Lariscy, of the Orange City Police Department, rushed to the scene where Officer Sherif El-Shami had come under gunfire. He dragged out a bleeding El-Shami, put him in his patrol car and rushed to Florida Hospital Fish Memorial in Orange City. The injured officer was later flown to Halifax Health Medical Center in Daytona Beach.

    “I didn’t do anything he wouldn’t have done for me,” is all Lariscy could say at a press briefing Thursday.

    El-Shami, 25, who longed to be a police officer since grade school, was fired upon when he went to 1651 E. University Ave. on Wednesday to check on Bryan Langford’s well-being.

    Langford opened fire on the officer at 10:47 a.m., with what investigators believe was a .223-caliber rifle, authorities said.
    By the end of the day, Langford had committed suicide apparently shortly before SWAT members assaulted the house at 6:55 p.m. Wednesday with 17 canisters of tear gas. Langford is also suspected of shooting to death his girlfriend, Cindy Henderson, 47, and her son Louis Adams, 26.

    A search of the house produced an arsenal of weapons and empty beer cans.
    It is chilling to think what might have happened if officer El-Shami had been fired upon by Langford’s .50 caliber sniper rifle.

    And yet, the gun lobby claims that “no crimes are committed” with .50 caliber sniper rifles. Despite the fact that the Violence Policy Center maintains a comprehensive list of such crimes.
    At least the VPC, linked in the article, actually provides 32 instances where a .50 was somehow related to a crime. By my count, after reading through the whole link (time I can never get back), a .50 was actually used to fire shots in 4 seperate instances, and a .50 cal was seized by police in at least 21 of the 32 supposed crimes.

    Not much of a "comprehensive list of such crimes", is it?

    http://www.vpc.org/snipercrime.htm
    I repeat - some people are just itching to get their panties in a wad about something. And this is why I normally stay out of Legal. <sigh>
    Don't think we are going to take your handguns from you, were just going to limit the number of rounds they will hold. orchidhunter

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    In fact, I think that we should get "stimulus money" to support the private citizen purchase of .50 sporters--just to head off this type of wrong-headed tragedy. Once again, our civilian ownership of rifles--by private citizens--will rescue us, as it always had.
    Not a bad idea. But we should go farther. We should subsidize the ammo to keep these important crime-fighting tools "in common use", and therefore protected.

    The government could stimulate me to the tune of oh, say 4 boxes of M2 ball a year? Just mail it to me, I'll delink it myself. Thanks.

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    I think orchidhunter has caliber envy. Must be intimidated by the biguns.
    "Buy rice today...it may not be on the shelves tomorrow"

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    Quote: "Only accurate rifles are interesting" - Col. Townsend Whelen

    While reading this thread, I was reminded of how words are used to frame the argument. I'd suggest that the use of "sniper rifle" is an oxymoron. There are more or less accurate tools (rifles, in this case) and more or less skilled operators. A rifle which has been built to a high standard of accuracy does not ensure a highly accurate result from a semi-skilled operator - discounting a rare display of good fortune. As I'm sure many here have observed, you can't simply purchase a good outcome. Many hours of training are required to obtain an excellent result given a good tool.

    After all, just because you have the means to purchase a lathe or end mill, that does not in and of itself make you a skilled machinist.
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    Modern .50 caliber BMG sniper rifles possess no reasonable utility for hunting or self-defense...
    So what. They are popular with well funded folks who like to target shoot. I used to run a 1000 yard range, and we got some 50BMG shooters out there, though they said the range was a little short.
    If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?

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    WARNING
    the OP was posted by a (banned) troll who has no interest in supporting your right to keep and bear arms
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    Copy, my bad.
    If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?

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    Another Moonbat idea

    It takes a lot of troll level moxie to get on this forum and propose more firearms regulations. It's probably too much to ask that this ding bat spend more time with his fellow moonbats so I won't ask.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf...
    If George Orwell DIDN"T say that first....he should have

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    Another Moonbat idea

    It takes a lot of troll level moxie to get on this forum and propose more firearms regulations. It's probably too much to ask that this ding bat spend more time with his fellow moonbats so I won't ask.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf...
    If George Orwell DIDN"T say that first....he should have

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    I would bet that he pops up back over on TFL or on .org. Maybe it is time to play "Whack a troll". I did enjoy reading through the 50 Caliber Terror site though and loved the picture of the 747 in the scope! Scary!
    I repeat - some people are just itching to get their panties in a wad about something. And this is why I normally stay out of Legal. <sigh>
    Don't think we are going to take your handguns from you, were just going to limit the number of rounds they will hold. orchidhunter

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    I love my ignore button.
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    This guy's a troll, well-known at a number of other gun blogs, can we please just shut him down?

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