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Thread: Self Defense vs Duty to Protect

  1. #1
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    Self Defense vs Duty to Protect

    Most of the advice on carry guns inherently assumes that little ones are not an issue. Disengagement (i.e. fleeing) is not necessarily appropriate if leaving behind 5, 7, 9 year old kids. Letting a thief steal property (say car) is one thing. It is quite another if your kids are still inside.

    In this sense, I guess I feel more like I'm on some sort of protection detail rather than just looking out for myself.

    Of course de-escalation is always first choice. But I don't pick many fights when I'm with the kids, or without them for that matter.

    Any advice or direction to relevant threads or other source would be appreciated.

    Thank you in advance for your assistance.

  2. #2
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    I agree, when my children are in danger, I shoot first then let the pieces fall where they may. Children and protecting them certainly does add a whole new element to the "good shoot, bad shoot" debate.
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  3. #3
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    Disengagement (i.e. fleeing) is not necessarily appropriate if leaving behind 5, 7, 9 year old kids.
    In fact, engagement (or re-engagement) may be needed.

    At one course I attended, the instructors had us negotiate a "fun house" with reactive targets (no-shoots, too). Part of what made it good was the instructors wanted to put you in the moment.

    Before I went in, the instuctor (knowing that I was not LE) gave me a non-LE scenario: "You're waiting in your car to pick your daughter up from the mall, when screaming people come out saying, 'There's a guy in there and he's shooting people.' Now, what are you going to do about it?"

    Even though I wasn't born one, I practice daily to become a better and better coward. But if it's my family in there, I'm going in.

  4. #4
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    +1

    There is young and bold, and there is old. I got old and want to get older but sometimes you have to do what is right.
    Last edited by Old Grump; June 23rd, 2009 at 09:11 PM.
    1934 – National Firearms Act, 1968 – The Gun Control Act, 1986 – Firearms Owners Protection Act, 1993 – Brady Handguns Violence Act, 1994 – Assault Weapons Ban, 1995 – Gun Free School Zones Act, NO MORE COMPROMISING

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    Very interesting proposition.

    I suspect that the vast majority of the folks that you find on this site will take and state the opinion that they will not, would not and won't consider a retreat leaving their kids at risk.

    For me, and I realize it is a trite statement, it's "over my dead body", but I believe that and feel that not only is it a serious statement, but that I have the background to turn the tables.

    Back to the topic, what greater display of love and devotion can be made for your family than to defend them to the end?

    Jeff B.
    Last edited by Jeff B.; June 23rd, 2009 at 08:21 PM. Reason: sp
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    Fenris,

    I don't know about your state, but MOST states (never, ever say "ALL" about anything to do with law!) do not require you to retreat to your detriment.

    Leaving kids, or anyone else you had a duty to protect, would be to your detriment and usually can not be forced upon you.

    Buckshot

  7. #7
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    Absolutely. Reminds me of that vid where some crackhead is ranting threats into the camera and then proceeds to walk off and start beating a random car with a bat; I'm sure scaring the crap out of the people inside. If that were me...and my kids were inside? That would be one dead crackhead.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...71440148276454
    “When you understand the nature of a thing, you know what it is capable of.”
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  8. #8
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    Kids add many complications to any tactical scenario. You don't want to draw fire if they're near you, and you better not miss if they're down range from you.

    Everything is dependent upon the immediate scenario (In the Army, we call it "METT-TC" dependent - for Mission, Enemy, Troops, Terrain, Time and Civilians -the factors you have to consider in every plan, and the enemy gets a vote).

    I've pretty much decided that more often than not, breaking contact and leaving the area (with my kids) will protect them than me charging off to meet an aggressor.

    My first responsibility, as a civilian, is to my family not to the masses in the shopping mall. We have SWAT and HRT and all those other special teams to be the heroes.

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    We have SWAT and HRT and all those other special teams to be the heroes.
    And what is the likelihood they will arrive in time? YOU are already there.
    Actively seeking a used, cosmetically flawed .357 lever rifle. PM me with offers.
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  10. #10
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    I got a wife and kids, too.

    Situational Awareness is tool number one in the box. If things start to look a little hinkey or if my spider-sense is tingling, we leave NOW, no questions asked.

    If there is a physical threat that I couldn't or didn't anticipate, running is NOT an option. I have a five year old son and a pregnant wife, neither of which can keep up with me nor outrun some idiot. So standing between them and a threat, both figuratively and physically is my only real option.

    I've got insurance to replace things. People, my family in particular, cannot be replaced. Miscreants, however, are a dime a dozen. Whack one and four more pop up.

    Honestly, when it comes to the safety of my family, I'm more concerned about what is RIGHT than what is LEGAL. Sometimes they differ.
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    And what is the likelihood they will arrive in time? YOU are already there
    The question is in time for what? All I need to do is get my family to an alternate location. If it comes down to a choice between picking up my toddler and running or drawing my pistol (with her running loose), I will usually choose to grab her and go. (again, METT-TC dependent on the specific situation and the information available at the time)

    The only time I'm concerned with shooting the opponent is when he's in the way of the exit - or the shot is too easy to pass up.

  12. #12
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    You're assuming that you and yours are not the primary target. May or may not be true. Many a goblin has targeted people with children because they assume them (and often correctly) to be unprepared and distracted. When you are the target, exactly what exit strategy do you have? How fast can you run with a toddler in tow? What about the better half?

    I whole-heartedly agree with extricating yourself as quickly as possible along with your loved ones. But pretending that you will never be the direct target of malicious intent is foolhardy and a disservice to your family.
    I wish I believed in reincarnation. Where's Charles "The Hammer" Martel when you need him?

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    yes, I play the bagpipes. No, I don't wear a skirt. It's called a kilt.

    Some of the smartest people I've known were "dumb hillbillies".

  13. #13
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    21H40 said:
    My first responsibility, as a civilian, is to my family not to the masses in the shopping mall. We have SWAT and HRT and all those other special teams to be the heroes.
    My response:
    And what is the likelihood they will arrive in time? YOU are already there.
    Loosedhorses hypothetical situation was:
    "You're waiting in your car to pick your daughter up from the mall, when screaming people come out saying, 'There's a guy in there and he's shooting people.' Now, what are you going to do about it?"
    Once again, YOU are already there, YOUR daughter is in the mall. The masses be damned, you are, or I AM GOING IN FOR MY CHILD, and I am doing so RIGHT FRIGGIN' NOW, not waiting for the "team" to come snipe the bad guy after he runs out of bullets and hostages.
    Last edited by ThrottleJockey; June 26th, 2009 at 03:47 PM.
    Actively seeking a used, cosmetically flawed .357 lever rifle. PM me with offers.
    The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.
    Come join the Second Amendment March, and help reclaim your birthrights as an American

  14. #14
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    ThrottleJockey said it.

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    ThrottleJockey, I'm with you 100%.

    (Edited to reflect changes in post #13--no problem!)

  16. #16
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    Sorry, Loosedhorse. Making correction NOW
    Actively seeking a used, cosmetically flawed .357 lever rifle. PM me with offers.
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    Come join the Second Amendment March, and help reclaim your birthrights as an American

  17. #17
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    OK... I had wandered from the OP scenario to a more general theme...now:

    You're assuming that you and yours are not the primary target. May or may not be true. Many a goblin has targeted people with children because they assume them (and often correctly) to be unprepared and distracted. When you are the target, exactly what exit strategy do you have?
    That's what I was inferring with those METT-TC statements. If the shortest path to safety is through the "goblin," well that's why I carry a pistol instead of roller skates!

    No, I do train and plan to meet direct aggression with force, but I also plan to protect my family through any means necessary - including quick relocation

  18. #18
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    I have the same thing with my grandkids. I have a heck of a sefe, and I carry on my person at hme most of the time.
    Scouts Out

  19. #19
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    I gave this advice again to one of my students this past weekend. The fellow is a professional athlete who has 3 small children at home. I put his wife through a defense course and we decided.
    He and his wife will carry loaded guns on their person's at home (S/AZ) At night they have a safe that responds to handprints on each side of the King sized bed. (She was raised on a Montana Ranch) They have Surefire flashlights handy and each has a Glock-19 wwith C T lasers. The kids are in the same side of the house so they have a safe room. They reinforced the safe room with double plywood covered with a nice stucco and then put book cases along the walls.
    They have a layered defense, motion lights, remote camera, and two dogs, one a Rottie. The other is a little snappy mix that is alert as heck.

    These folks have money, but any of us can do much of the same. Layered defense is easy, motion lights and dogs will give you time to get a gun. Book cases are great cover and strategically placed will let you hold any one at bay untill help arrives.
    Scouts Out

  20. #20
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    My reaction, and this is something I have thought about often, would be to first ensure the safety of of my own and remove them to a place of safety preferably without firing a shot but by fire and maneuver if necessary and then to stay with them and NOT leave them.

  21. #21
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    I'm impressed threefeathers. That's some good planning.

  22. #22
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    Interesting that the OP never responded. But yes you are on security detail. Just like all the other parents for the last billion years through all of nature. While we are top of the food chain now, the predators are more cannibalistic in nature.

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    Angry

    When bush was in office the dow was 14000 i had a job i paid my mortgage my cc was 7.99 i had health ins. Thing were good for me and others. Me thinks were in trouble, signed concerned

  24. #24
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    Im looking into a weapon called the judge a 4-10 rtevolver.

  25. #25
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    Throttle Jockey, I won't stand by and let innocent people get slaughtered, but I can't believe that running into a mall with an active shooter present is a good idea... now if I am already in the middle of things, and my family has escaped... that is different.

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