1911 frame ?

[henrymartin]

This has been discussed million times over, but while opinions vary and some manufacturers have changed slightly (as far as quality, etc), I would like an honest recommendation, if possible.

This is the deal:

I am getting myself into building a 1911, a first one at that. I will have help from a 30+ years Colt's Hartford plant veteran. I will have a complete series 70 slide (Colt) with all the little parts, barrel, bushing, and all. Essentially, everything but the frame.

I do like two tone guns, if possible, and am leaning towards Caspian stainless frame. As far as I know, their customer service is great, and they are in the neighboring state
Then I read somewhere, and this is where Google can be your enemy (too much info) about Fusion frames.
Let me say this, I want plain, tight, tough frame -- no accessory rails, no beavertail, no...well, a straight, plain, 1911 Government model setup with the best fit available with the parts I'll get. I know that Caspian tends to be on the larger size, requiring extra lapping but that's a good thing, IMHO.

Thanks

[jfrey]

Caspian

[Tom-C]

You can also check with Foster Industries; http://fosterind.com/

They sell slightly blemished Caspian recievers, slides and matched sets.

[Absintheur]

I built my first 1911 on a Caspian frame using one of their slides as well. It did take some fitting but the pistol also shoots like a dream. I don't think you can go wrong with a Caspian frame...

My first 1911 build...

[henrymartin]

Absintheur: Nice built!

Tom-C: Thanks, I'll look them over. The price difference is not that great vs Caspian from Caspian, but the immediate availability is appealing.

[Absintheur]

Tom C...thanks...Fosters has the race ready frames buy one get one at 1/2 price...that would make them about 130 apiece...hard to turn down...just what i need...2 1911 builds to create....lol.

[dondone]

What's the verdict on Rock Island frames?

[henrymartin]

Tom-C: Have you actually used/ordered any Foster Ind. frames? I Know they are Caspian minus the cosmetics but would like to hear from an actual user. The price difference between basic Caspian and the same from Foster is not really that much. I called Foster today and asked about what "cosmetic blemishes" meant. Was told that it could be small pitting from the casting operation. Structurally they are guaranteed for life, but if the pitting is excessive, ie not being able to hide by either polishing or bead blasting, then I'd rather pay the extra few dollars.
So, actual users, please hit me with the good and the bad.

[Tom-C]

henerymartin

I have not, but other guys that were in class with me did. They are Caspian frames that have slight (very slight) blemishes, usually in inconspicuous places or overruns from a production contract. Foster Industries is the parent company of Caspian.

Advantage: Available now. Caspian frames and slides have to be ordered with a wait time and the Foster parts are less expensive.

Disadvantage: You have to take what is available.

If they have what you want I would jump on it before someone else does.

[henrymartin]

Thank Tom-C.

I want plain, simple, basic. They had 10 in stock last I checked. Foster said 1 week wait time, Caspian said 4-8 weeks. Brownells has Caspian in stock, but not what I want. (all others except basic have plunger tube and I was told I don't need one)

[45crittergitter]

I read a gunsmith's article some time back where he was simply ecstatic over Baer frames, because they're heat treated before machining, and therefore, in his words, straight. He seemed to think they were the best. I can't recall who the 'smith was, but someone who writes in a gunrag - Petty, Hamilton, etc.

[henrymartin]

My FIL built his own from LB frame and slide and that thing is soooo tight that you have to slap it from the muzzle to get the slide moving. Seriously.
I looked at Wilson frames and a few others, but decided to go with the Caspian (slightly blemished) from Foster. This being my first built ever, I may as well try first with the inexpensive. It's been ordered for about a week and a half now, so it should be here soon. I'll post a pic once it shows up.

[henrymartin]

No frame yet, but I was gifted the other parts I'll need. So now I have:

Complete Colt slide assembly Series 70
Colt 1911 barrel assy
Colt Magazines
Colt and Chip McCormic sears
Colt Commander and Colt 1911 Gov Hammer assemblies
Colt Grip safety
Colt Sear Spring
Smith & Alexander Grip safety (ss)
Colt disconnectors (blue and ss)
Colt plunger tubes (blue and ss)
screw bushings
Colt ejectors (blue and ss)
Speed Trigger
Full length guide rod and plug
Colt thumb safety (blue)
Wilson Combat thumb safety (ss)
Smith & Alexander grip safety mainspring housing (blue and ss)
Colt slide stops (blue and ss)
Colt magazine catch (blue and ss)
Grip screws
Les Baer grips
Hammer/mainspring housing pins (blue and ss)

Okay, what's missing?

I know I'm missing an ejector pin.

[Tom-C]

henrymartin

Link and link pin
hammer strut and pin
mainspring, mainspring cap, housing pin and housing pin retainer
Slide stop plunger, trigger safety plunger and plunger spring
magazine catch spring and magazine catch lock


Its always the little things that get you

Tom

[Canuck-IL]

Foster often has frames left from a production overrun - they aren't all blemished units.
/Bryan

[henrymartin]

Tom,

Yes, the little things....

I looked and the barrel already has link in place, so there goes that one. I'll have to open the other bag and see what else is in there. I went off a list that was given to me with the goods, but by the looks of it, a lot of the stuff seems to be already in assemblies. Looks like the mainspring housings could be complete as well.
It was all given to me by my dear FiL, who spent years working at Colt's plant. He got all of the Colt parts way back when, so it was not as expensive as buying them new today. Plus, they were hand selected by him (so I believe). He decided not to build any more for himself, so, a few years ago when he retired, he told me to get a frame. I haven't taken him up on the offer until now, and it's been years. I felt bad and didn't want to owe him anything, but now, seeing the parts were just "collecting dust" I decided to grab them before he gives it to someone else, like what happened with some other things I didn't want to take.

He kept a few very nice pieces for himself and I got the scraps, so I don't feel that bad.

[henrymartin]

Okay, the frame finally showed up today, after I paid for it on Dec. 31st. (good that I did, since now I don't have the cash for it) It has a very, very small machining mark where the grips go, but the mark is so small that it will easily remove with a 1200 grit sandpaper. For the money, the frame looks just perfect.

Now on to the hard part, that is lapping, smoothing, polishing, fitting what did I get myself into?

I tried fitting the slide and it went only about 1/2 inch onto the rails. After rubbing it back and forth a few times atop 1200 grit paper on a glass paper, I can slide the slide in about a 1/3 of the way. The rails OD is about the same as the cuts in the slide, and the rails height is almost the same, measuring about .0015" thicker. I will now put some lapping compound and some lube on it and try working it by hand to see how far I can get. It does not look oversized by any means, so I'll be extra careful. The space between slide and frame is barely visible (I have to hold it against a light to even see it) so it looks like a promising tight fit right from the start.

Here is a pic of the frame:

[henrymartin]

Okay, continuing the adventure

A little disclaimer is appropriate. The "help" I mentioned at the first post is in NV, and I am in NH, so there goes the help. I never built a 1911, but like to tinker with things, and consider myself fairly capable with my hands. Standard tools are at home, plus a set of gunsmithing screwdrivers. I don't own a 1911 book, other than the army maintenance manual, and I only own one other 1911 variant, the Para GI Expert. I use the internet to look at various sources and choose whatever I find reasonable and appropriate. That being said:

After working on it last night and tonight, I finally managed to get the slide onto the rails. I did look at various lapping tools, methods, and approaches. I contemplated making a "rig" to hold the frame in a vise, but hated the idea of forcing the slide back and forth with blows, after all, I have a mint Mark IV, 70's slide. The frame being relatively cheap, I first measured the cuts in the slide, and then the rails. The rails were slightly larger and the slide did not go on at all, other than about 1/2". So, I started with sandpaper, on a glass, and rubbing the frame back and forth. I was too careful, I guess, with a 1200 grit, and soon switched to 600 grit. When I was able to get the slide on about 1/3 of the way. That's when I switched to rubbing compound and after scraping my hand and bruising the other, I gave up.

Tonight, I mixed some 600 grit lapping powder with cutting oil to make a smooth liquid (not paste), covered the slide in a masking tape, and started working it back and forth, more and more in. I worked by using my hands and pushing against the floor, covered with a thick towel. Eventually, I was able to push the slide all the way in (and that's when it got stuck ) With a rubber mallet, I gently tapped it out again while holding the frame in one hand, cleaned the rails and slide, applied the solution and started the same again. Eventually, it worked smoother and smoother, with only the last inch or so feeling very sticky. I only rubbed the slide back and forth along that length until smooth. When it was all done, I gave everything a good scrub with a nylon brush and RemOil, then tried it again. Slide went in and out without catching anywhere, and there was no side play. Still, it felt a little too tight, and since I want a shooter that will not get stuck after 50 rounds, I ran five more strokes with the lapping compound. No side play, no vertical play, no rattling, and slide drops off frame by its own weight when held vertically. I am happy.
A lot of people seem to like the Para Gi Expert fit, but this is much tighter.

I tried it with a stock spring and a full length guide rod, and it works like a charm.

Next: Magazine well polishing (7rnds mags go in and out easy, 8rnds stick a little), Magazine catch/release fitting (it drops in but won't let mag pass unless de-pressed) and trigger channel polishing (trigger sticks 1/2 way through opening, and trigger bar channel feels rough).

One more dilemma:

I have a standard frame and a beavertail WC high grip safety. I am contemplating 3 options: Order a standard grip safety, cut frame to fit the beavertail (which would mean ordering a jig, which costs almost as much as a new safety), or cutting away a bit of the safety to fit in the standard frame, while leaving the high beavertail in place. I see that WC sells BT safety that fits standard frames without any frame cutting, so I'm leaving that way, to just file the radius off enough to fit the standard frame, without having to buy a new safety. Anyone has done that, or has the BT safety in a standard frame?

Now, should I continue posting this adventure here, or start a new "build" thread, or just STFU and not say anything?

[kcshooter]

My first complete build was a Foster's frame with a Fusion slide. I have nothing but the best to say about either one.

My Foster's blem was a 2 tiny dings on the front strap checkering. Almost completely unnoticable unless I point it out to someone.

[henrymartin]

After much filing, sanding, trying, and trying again, and the some lapping, the WC beavertail is now in place. Also, the trigger now fits and moves smoothly.

Some pics:

[henrymartin]

Yesterday I managed to undercut my trigger guard a little bit so it would feel more comfortable and today I spent a couple of hours trying to create 90 degree grid on the front strap, spaced 1/8". Now I'll have to decide whether I'm going to make it 1/16" and use a triangular file to "checker" it, or whether I'm going to attempt the "golf ball" treatment with a drill press, or whether to use a Dremmel and a 1/8" high speed cutter to make dimples, or ....

[henrymartin]

Here are a couple of pics of the undercut trigger guard and the front strap dimples. Trigger guard was undercut with a sanding drum on a drill press, and dimples were made on a drill press in a grid of 1/8" alternating holes. The holes were drilled first with a 1/8" bit, then smoothed with a 1/8" diamond cutter. It still needs some cleaning and polishing, but it feels good in hand. The light plays tricks on the eyes when taking pics.

Next, finish cleaning, deburring, and polishing the frame, then installing plunger and ejector.

[henrymartin]

859 views and no comments. Hey, I either completely suck at this and you guys want to spare me the shame, or ....

Plunger and ejector went in today. Plunger tube was staked with a punch as best as I could since there is hardly any frame clearance. I also used some Blue Loctite and clamped it overnight. Tomorrow I'll see if and how it is holding together. Since no one around here has the staking tool and I could not get by with the BB and clamps, even after relieving the frame for expansion (stock frame had straight holes); it just did not work for me.
Ejector was easy, just had to cut the rear leg short and file a slot for the pin.

Tomorrow is internals polishing day.

[tlynch]

859 views and no comments. Hey, I either completely suck at this and you guys want to spare me the shame, or ....

Or we are all jealous, and want to learn from you so we can do it ourselves later.

Keep up the good work!
Tom

[henrymartin]

Or we are all jealous, and want to learn from you so we can do it ourselves later.

Keep up the good work!
Tom

Yeah Tom, funny.