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Thread: National Parks Carry FAQ

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    National Parks Carry FAQ

    National Park Carry FAQ

    Q: When does this new law take effect?
    A: 12:01am February 22, 2010


    However, it is strongly recommended that you give it 12-24 hours of “buffer time” before exercising your right to carry.



    Q: Is the new law for Concealed or Open carry?
    A: It depends on your state laws.


    The relevant section (612) of HR627/PubLaw 111-24 states
    “The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if
    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.
    In short, this means that the rules and restrictions are now the same as they would be anywhere else in the state.

    So in Virginia, for example, if it is legal for you to own/possess a firearm, it would be legal to Open carry, and also to Concealed carry (with a valid CCW permit) that firearm. In some parks (Yellowstone) that cross multiple boundaries you also need to be aware of WHERE you are.



    Q: What about information stations and concession stands?
    A: Any restricted federal buildings must be clearly posted as such.


    The interior of a federal building (this includes any rest stops, information centers, and concession stands bearing the National Park Service logo) falls under Title 18, Sec 930 “Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities” ( http://tinyurl.com/yg2zhwb )
    However, Title 18, Sec 930 does stipulate the following
    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
    public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility.

    So there shouldn’t be any confusion as restricted buildings MUST BY LAW be “posted conspicuously” that weapons are not permitted. If it’s not posted, it’s not restricted (Unless you have been notified by an authorized person and asked to leave because then you've had "actual notice" under subsection H...<sigh>).



    Q: What if I am confronted by a park official who doesn’t know the new law?
    A: Co-operate with the park official and lodge an official complaint later.


    If you are confronted by a park official who does not seem to know the changes in the law it is not unreasonable to ask if they are aware of the changes in the law, however you should cooperate fully with any instructions/directions from that park official while at the same time trying to collect enough information (name, rank, position, title, badge#) to enable you to lodge a formal complaint later.

    However, if a park official asks you to leave a building (even one without a sign) you should do so without delay (see the note about "subsection H" above).





    -------------------The boring details if you want them--------------------

    Relevant Text from HR627/PubLaw 111-24 Section (512) “Protecting Americans From Violent Crime”
    Available online at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:h.r.00627:

    [DOCID: publ024.111]
    CREDIT CARD ACCOUNTABILITY RESPONSIBILITY AND DISCLOSURE ACT OF 2009
    HR 627 become Public Law 111-24
    111th Congress

    SEC. 512. <<NOTE: 16 USC 1a-7b.>>
    PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM VIOLENT CRIME.
    Approved May 22, 2009.

    (a) Congressional Findings.--Congress finds the following:

    (1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides that “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”.

    (2) Section 2.4(a)(1) of title 36, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that ``except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (Alaska regulations), the following are prohibited: (i) Possessing a weapon, trap or net (ii) Carrying a weapon, trap or net (iii) Using a weapon, trap or net''.

    (3) Section 27.42 of title 50, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that, except in special circumstances, citizens of the United States may not ``possess, use, or transport firearms on national wildlife refuges'' of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.

    (4) The regulations described in paragraphs (2) and (3) prevent individuals complying with Federal and State laws from exercising the second amendment rights of the individuals while at units of--
    (A) the National Park System; and
    (B) the National Wildlife Refuge System.

    (5) The existence of different laws relating to the transportation and possession of firearms at different units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System entrapped law-abiding gun owners while at units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.

    (6) Although the Bush administration issued new regulations relating to the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens in units of the National Park System and National Wildlife Refuge System that went into effect on January 9, 2009--
    (A) on March 19, 2009, the United States District Court for the District of Columbia granted a preliminary injunction with respect to the implementation and enforcement of the new regulations; and
    (B) the new regulations--
    (i) are under review by the administration; and
    (ii) may be altered.

    (7) Congress needs to weigh in on the new regulations to ensure that unelected bureaucrats and judges cannot again override the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens on 83,600,000 acres of National Park System land and 90,790,000 acres of land under the jurisdiction of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.

    (8) The Federal laws should make it clear that the second amendment rights of an individual at a unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System should not be infringed.
    (b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.--The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--
    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    LEGISLATIVE HISTORY--H.R. 627 (S. 414):
    HOUSE REPORTS: No. 111-88 (Comm. on Financial Services).
    SENATE REPORTS: No. 111-16 accompanying S. 414 (Comm. on Banking,
    Housing, and Urban Affairs).
    CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, Vol. 155 (2009):
    Apr. 29, 30, considered and passed House.
    May 11-14, 19, considered and passed Senate, amended.
    May 20, House concurred in Senate amendment.
    DAILY COMPILATION OF PRESIDENTIAL DOCUMENTS (2009):
    May 22, Presidential remarks.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Relevant Text from Title 18, Sec 930
    “Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities”

    ( http://tinyurl.com/yg2zhwb )
    TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
    PART I--CRIMES
    CHAPTER 44--FIREARMS
    Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
    possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in
    a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to
    do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1
    year, or both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be
    used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be
    present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or
    attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
    more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of
    subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal
    facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or
    attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided
    in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to--
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
    agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
    subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
    supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution
    of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
    Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession
    is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
    in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    (e)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly
    possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility,
    or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not
    more than 2 years, or both.
    (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in
    paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
    (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the
    United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders
    regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within
    any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any
    grounds appurtenant to such building.
    (g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term ``Federal facility'' means a building or part
    thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
    employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their
    official duties.
    (2) The term ``dangerous weapon'' means a weapon, device,
    instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is
    used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily
    injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a
    blade of less than 2\1/2\ inches in length.
    (3) The term ``Federal court facility'' means the courtroom,
    judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney
    conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court
    clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal,
    probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court
    of the United States.

    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be
    posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility,
    and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
    public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be
    convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a
    Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility,
    unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the
    case may be.
    Last edited by ZeSpectre; January 27th, 2010 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Edited for clarification on a couple of points.
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  2. #2
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    You might want to sticky this until March 1st or so.

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    I'm not sure I agree with the "12-24 hour buffer time". It's not like this hasn't been public knowledge for quite a while. Any public official who isn't prepared for Civil Rights, or drags their feet intentionally, deserves to have those feet held to the fire...

    YMMV...

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    Just to clarify, this does not include the Natl Forests, correct?

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    Just to clarify, this does not include the Natl Forests, correct?
    That is correct.

    National PARKS
    and
    National FORESTS

    Have different rules and we're only talking about PARKS in this thread.
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    I'm not sure I agree with the "12-24 hour buffer time". It's not like this hasn't been public knowledge for quite a while. Any public official who isn't prepared for Civil Rights, or drags their feet intentionally, deserves to have those feet held to the fire...
    If you want to push the issue then be my guest.

    I wouldn't buy a rifle with a barrel of exactly 16 inches (I'll take an extra 1/2 in please) and I'm not going to be there early in the morning on the 22'nd waiting at the gate.
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    I'm going camping in Arches Nat'l. Park in May. I'll be armed to the teeth.
    NRA Life Member
    1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a
    firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for
    traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

  8. #8
    Just to clarify, this does not include the Natl Forests, correct?
    IIRC, National Forests have always adhered to state law regarding guns. All this does is make National Parks the same way.

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    18 USC 930(a) reads Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    18 USC 930(d) reads Subsection (a) shall not apply to ... (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    So, here are my dumb questions on National Park carry.

    How come 930(d) doesn't permit one to carry into Federal Facilities? Is it that lawful carry into Federal Facilities can be restricted by mere posting of a sign in accordance with 930(h)?
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

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    And let's not forget this bit of the USC:

    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be
    posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility,
    and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
    public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be
    convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a
    Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility,
    unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the
    case may be.

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    Bump for the weekend
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    Thank you for organizing this helpful information.
    Oleg Volk
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    Bump for the week. We're getting close folks!
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    +1 Thank you.

    Be safe out there, highroaders.

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    End of the week bump. We're almost there (and it's really pissing some people off to no end).
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    Please take my advice in the spirit it is offered, both here and in the March issue of GUN WORLD on parks packin'

    This is going to be a new experience for a lot of people who opposed the idea and have believed all the blood and gore predictions from the antis. They will have to be "eased into it"

    Translation: Don't be a boorish ogre and rush right out to the nearest national park packing the biggest handgun you could find, carried in the most provocative manner you can cook up, just to get in someone's face. That will play right into the hands -- and predictions -- of the anti-gunners.

    Take the "high road" and be an ambassador for good will and safe carry, either concealed or open. This time of year, concealed would certainly be the more prudent approach, just to protect your gun from the elements.

    Thanks Ze Spectre for the work on the enlightening information here.

    We're all exploring new ground here. Let's not litter it with stupidity in the first hundred yards "up the trail."

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    Amen on that Dave.
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    Bump for the weekend
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    BUMP - Because today is the day!
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    I'm gonna predict that most people probably won't even notice the change.

  21. #21
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    Oh at least one idiot out there will do some damnedfool thing and the "managed media" will try to paint ALL of us with that brush.
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    the "managed media" will try to paint ALL of us with that brush.
    From blood running in the streets to blood running in the forests.
    But one year from today it will all be irrelevant.The trails and rivers didn't get painted red and the fear mongers in the media will have moved on to another target.

    They'll just never fess up to the fact that criminals have been carrying in the Parks all the while. Along with quite a few honest folks who broke the "rules" because they didn't feel safe unarmed.There is no difference between one foot in a N.P. and one foot outside.But that just makes too much sense.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Affect on Long Guns?

    A lot of attention has been given to being able to conceal firearms in the NPs.

    How about long guns? It looks like they are also allowed to be possessed in a NP, assuming state law does not prohibit such.

    The relevant section (612) of HR627/PubLaw 111-24 states
    “The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if


    Do you all agree that this law allow you to keep an assembled, functional, loaded long gun in your RV/Tent/etc in a NP?
    "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditional lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. " ~Justice Anthony Scalia~ 06-26-08

    NRA Certified Pistol/PPITH Instructor, Novice IPSC Shooter, Certifiable Gun Nut & Active Member of the Right Wing Conspiracy

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    Do you all agree that this law allow you to keep an assembled, functional, loaded long gun in your RV/Tent/etc in a NP?
    The way the law is written, if your state laws would allow you to do so then that would apply in a National Park as well.
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    Do you all agree that this law allow you to keep an assembled, functional, loaded long gun in your RV/Tent/etc in a NP?
    __________
    I agree.Good research.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

    'Harry Callahan' Magnum Force 1973

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