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Thread: StraightJacket Litmus test.

  1. #51
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    This is going to take this thread in a direction I don't care to go.
    Last edited by dogmush; April 5th, 2010 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Changed my mind on the statement

  2. #52
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    dogmush: Rather than saying it isn't accurate can you please post the part of the article that shows it isn't what the author said? Also any other information that shows it isn't accurate would be a good addition as well.

    Also if you do your test let me know, I have absolutely no interest in the StraightJacket but the results should be interesting.
    Last edited by ShadoWalker; April 5th, 2010 at 12:18 PM.
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  3. #53
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    Were I going to do this mod I would go about it thusly. Start with a known quality barrel. Manufacture and install Full length aluminum heat sink on barrel with longitudinal fins. Install shroud over barrel /heat sink assy and use it to put barrel in tension, much like a dan wesson revolver. Rear of shroud is ported, front of shroud is ported into muzzle brake so that air is venturied down through the heat sink by the muzzle gas exiting the brake. If you wanted to really fix things pour water down the rear shroud ports between shots.

    This thing may very well do something, but I see super top secret, lots of protest, taming of fierce AR-15 recoil etc. At least when I call Pac-nor, Krieger, Douglas et. al I know what I'm getting.
    No, holding that venegence upon their enemies was more to be desired than any personal blessings, and reckoning this to be the most glorious of hazards, they joyfully determined to accept the risk... Thus, choosing to die resisting, rather than to live submitting, they fled only from dishonor... Pericles' Funeral Oration

  4. #54
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    dogmush: I really appreciate your sharing with us. I'm looking forward to seeing what you learn from the experiment. I hope that the bevy of "helpful" suggestions will not deter you from completing your project.

  5. #55
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    This is going to take this thread in a direction I don't care to go.
    That's convenient... I don't think I was derailing the thread. You jumped on something the gunsmith said and took off with the "oh no it isn't". I'm still of the opinion I posted in frame #9

    Well, I know you are a "gadget" guy, so I won't bother to tell you that you're really wasting your time with heat measurements, etc. You'll find the rifle "runs cool" after the system is applied, and that it can take probably up to 30-40 rounds before it gets appreciably hot on the outside, so start with plenty of ammo. My ATR is in 30-06 and I shot it all day Saturday and only got it warm once, and that was after it had sat in the sun for about an hour.
    My opinion is that you'll have a group of "measurements" that don't really relate to anything, other than the heat generated by x number of shots... it won't show any appreciable loss in accuracy, but will show a marked improvement in accuracy by the system being on the gun, if you give it "honest shots". EVERY gun it's been applied to has shown marked increases in accuracy up to this point, and if yours suddenly "fails", I'll find that pretty suspect.

    I suggest having TTI shoot your gun "before and after" and post it in their media section.

    WT
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    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

  6. #56
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    ...and if yours suddenly "fails", I'll find that pretty suspect.
    Well, if you don't believe him... and we clearly don't believe you, it will just be a contest of credibility... Between the guy who provides exact data and the guy who claims world record groups are being shot.

    I suggest having TTI shoot your gun "before and after" and post it in their media section.
    Honestly, did you just suggest that dogmush might intentionally throw the shooting to skew the test, but that TTI might not do the same thing?

    Here's some honest and friendly advice wristtwister. Don't post another thing about TTIs product until after dogmush is done with his testing. You have done far more harm to TTI on this forum than you could possibly imagine.

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    Here's some honest and friendly advice wristtwister. Don't post another thing about TTIs product until after dogmush is done with his testing. You have done far more harm to TTI on this forum than you could possibly imagine.
    Couldn't have said it better. For all we know, any increase in accuracy could be the result of something as simple as having the barrel recrowned. Personally, I'd be delighted if TTI really HAS come up with something new - something that will set the world of firearms back on fire. There are a lot of firearms and accessory manufacturers that have become rather hidebound lately. I can't remember the last really innovative product to hit the market. We grow by baby steps. I want to see someone come out with something really revolutionary, and shake things up a bit.

    wristtwister, you'd do TTI a better service if you would just stop "defending" them so assiduously, and let their system stand on it's own merits. Either it's worth it, or it's not, and all your breast beating won't change things wither way.


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  8. #58
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    I couldn't agree more! WT I would let dogmush finish his tests. Maybe in the end everything you have said will be proven to be true! My two cents and worth every penny.
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  9. #59
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    I love the smell of actual data with a documented testing methodology in the morning. Smells like... facts.
    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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  10. #60
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    I love the smell of actual data with a documented testing methodology in the morning. Smells like... facts.
    Me too, Balog...

    Now, everybody that's actually put their hands on, seen, or shot a straitjacketed rifle, please raise your hand... I didn't think so...

    I absolutely have no problem with Dogmush doing his experiment. I just can tell you that what he's going to find out is useless data... it's like knowing the population in Cleveland in 1921. It might be a fact, but unless you have a context in which it makes sense, it's useless.

    BTW, what's the bore temperature of a bull barrel Remington 700 after 6 shots? OMG... how can the universe exist without that particular fact?

    I'm one of those guys with his hand in the air, and that actually owns, shoots, and cleans one... and, just for the record, nothing I've said is outrageous or untruthful. You guys are guessing, and then get mad when I tell you that you're wrong. It's that simple... and as another matter of fact, I don't remember seeing any of you at the plant where they're made bringing in a rifle to be straitjacketed. When you do that, then you have some credibility to tell me I'm full of it... until then, you're still just guessing and ranting about "what you know".

    Maybe in the end everything you have said will be proven to be true!
    Maybe, maybe not... kind of depends on how the data is presented and since I have no confidence that the data will actually prove anything useful, it's kind of like global warming facts to me.

    So far, everybody that's guessed at how the straitjacket system works has been dead wrong. Even the custom-gun gunsmith that examined the guns last week was mystified about the system, but after shooting them, they signed on as a dealer... so don't expect me to fall over and faint at the "accumulation of data"... pulling the trigger on one is a whole lot more "enlightening" than pie charts and line diagrams.

    Personally, I'd be delighted if TTI really HAS come up with something new - something that will set the world of firearms back on fire.
    I don't think you'll be disappointed if you actually shoot one of their guns. It isn't hard to see your groups shrink down to being better than you imagined. I've seen it so many times now, it's becoming commonplace... and it's what convinced me that the system actually works. I shot my own .308 Remington 700 and then shot one with a straitjacket... the results spoke for themselves, and on a 35 degree day, I couldn't pick my gun up by the barrel, and after pumping 40 rounds through the straitjacketed rifle, I not only could hold it by the barrel, it was still cool to the touch.

    Here's some honest and friendly advice wristtwister. Don't post another thing about TTIs product until after dogmush is done with his testing. You have done far more harm to TTI on this forum than you could possibly imagine.
    Don't post another thing about TTIs product until after dogmush is done with his testing.
    Or what?

    He's not writing the Bible here, ClickClick... and as for me "harming TTI on this forum", until I see THR members mobbing the doors of TTI to get their rifles done, I don't see any appreciable damage to anything, except maybe a few of you "experts" egos. This is an internet board, where opinions are worth just what they cost.

    If I remember correctly, and I do... the first "argument" about TTI was that "they didn't exist"... then, it was the 30 to 45 days of "that product can't do that"... then the "what's in it" guessing started... no matter what anybody says, there's some "expert" out there that knows better... and most of them have absolutely no knowledge about what they're talking about.

    My opinions are based on 45 years of mechanical engineering, mechanical design, thermal and harmonic analysis, and actually owning the product being discussed and using it repeatedly... so if you want to post your "creds"... go for it. I not only know the product works, I can do the calculations to prove what its results should be in a given situation.

    Al invented this system as an "accuracy system". The heat dissipation and recoil elimination were actually discovered in the process of doing the accuracy testing... so they're "side benefits" of his research.

    I have an open invitation for anybody on THR that wants to shoot my gun with the straitjacket on it to call TTI and tell them when I need to be there. Bring a box or two of ammo (30-06) and I'll drive you to the range. They have other guns at the shop, but since you guys seem to want to make this personal with me, that's your challenge... show up and shoot. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

    WT
    "What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

  11. #61
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    WT,
    If you remember, you first introduced the rest of us unwashed to the StraightJacketSystem by announcing it as the 'new recoil reduction system', didn't you? First post said it would revolutionize yaada, yaada... Later comes out that the 'system' includes a muzzle brake. Oh....OK.

    Then the miraculous thermal abilities were touted. Now that we are on the cusp of seeing the miracle in action....you seem to be trying to steer the conversation away and let's all focus on the accuracy improvements! Oh... OK.

    If we had been introduced to this invention with 'new accuracy improver' the whole shebang would have been off on a better foot, at least with me. Smoke and mirrors always sets of the BS alarm and, even if the device in question is wonderful, once the thoughts that smoke is being blown up one's backside....well, it is kind of tainted.

    It would be neat for someone to do an actual before and after accuracy demonstration. Why doesn't the factory do this? I don't have any rifles that would greatly benefit from the 'system' as I admit that I have trouble shooting under half-minute groups even if the rifle can do much better.

    Maybe ask your factory friend to test a rifle before and after and show the results?

    Edit: Forgot to say, 'Hey! I'd like to see the numbers you can crunch to show the improvements.

  12. #62
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    It would be neat for someone to do an actual before and after accuracy demonstration.
    http://www.teludynetech.com/beforeandafter.cfm

    Scroll down to the targets and move your cursor over the targets.

    WT
    "What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

  13. #63
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    This is an interesting system, I hope it works.

    But wristtwister you need to stop talking because you are coming off as incredibly defensive and that makes potential buyers nervous. I know a couple of manufacturers who have not been able to recover for doing the exact same thing you are. Every time anyone said anything negative they jump right in and start defending, making it look like you are trying to cover up something. I hate to say it but that is exactly how you sound. I know you are proud of what you are doing but you have to let the test play out. You are dealing with a group of people who will scrutinize every little thing, for good and bad reasons, this same group that spends BILLIONS of dollars every year on crap we don't need.

    They are testing on every thing you said your product can do. Accuracy, heat, and whatever else you have mentioned.

    Be cool man.

  14. #64
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    I repeat: It would be nice if they would do an actual before and after. What they show is a 10 to 12 shot spray, then a 5 shot group. Same bullets? The one (7mm) that actually lists them, uses different bullets for each target. And....this shows us what? That a rifle likes one bullet better than another? Revolutionary!!

    To be valid, the targets should show equal shot groups, using same ammo, in same time frame, shot from same bench by same (impartial, professional) shooter.

    Seeing those targets, which I had seen before, sets off the 'smoke & mirror' alarm in my head. Why the glaring discrepincies? A deliberate attempt to deceive? Or just sloppiness?

    Suggest they fire 5 groups of 5 in a set time frame....before and after using same ammo. Same drill the NRA uses. Show the targets. Or, if you handload and develop an accurate load for the before rifle, do the same for the kitted one.

    Am I the only one who isn't impressed with the professionalism of these 'demonstration' targets? Sadly, I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong here.....

  15. #65
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    Or what?

    He's not writing the Bible here, ClickClick... and as for me "harming TTI on this forum", until I see THR members mobbing the doors of TTI to get their rifles done, I don't see any appreciable damage to anything, except maybe a few of you "experts" egos.
    You just don't get it.

    The harm being done is specifically that you won't see any THR members "mobbing the doors of TTI". In fact, I suspect that now you have posted quite a bit of plain out bullarky, the only StraightJacket system that will be sold to a THR member who has read these threads will be to dogmush.

    Did you honestly expect us to believe the system shoots world record groups, but that TTI didn't think that would be good advertising?

    Although, I'm starting to suspect that even dogmush might not be sending in his rifle after this:

    Hello everyone,
    I'm the inventor of this StraightJacket, please let me clear up a couple things.
    Its not a recoil elimintion system.
    It is a Composite bull barrel with a metal jacket and a removeable muzzle brake that comes with it (its patented and works better than anything else I've tested).
    The system costs $300 -$400 depending on your choice of our metal selection.
    It does work on new and very accurate rifles.
    It does remove heat very rapidly, how it does that is my secret.
    It does revive old crappy barrels.
    It adds 2 lbs. in its heaviest rendition.
    It is very hard to believe...(I have converted the toughest skeptics...my High Power Buddies).
    untill you try it, then your in trouble,
    I installed this on every gun in my cabinet.
    Please keep looking for information on this we are doing all our publicity now after getting everything else taken care of first.
    Thanks for listening
    Alan Adolphsen
    Clicky the Linky

    That's right, StraightJacket is nothing more than a replacement composite barrel with a metal shroud around it. The shroud is most likely filled with a media that allows the space to act as a heat sink.

    No wonder no one was telling us any details.

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    This would be the very direction I didn't want the thread to go. Oh well.

    I'm starting to suspect that even dogmush might not be sending in his rifle after this:
    No, I'm still doing it. I have been playing with idea's for the cooling test. I think I have a rig built and ready to go for tonight.

    Interestingly enough, when I call and talk to the guys at TTI, what they have said is that it's the same barrel, with a shroud, and a composite layer between the two, not a new barrel. They were very clear that it's not a new barrel.

    Quote Originally Posted by RecoilRob
    To be valid, the targets should show equal shot groups, using same ammo, in same time frame, shot from same bench by same (impartial, professional) shooter.
    That's what I'm trying to do, except that I'm not a professional shooter. I too noticed the .........sloppiness of the before and aftor shots on their site, that's what started me on this little quest.

  17. #67
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    On this StraightJacket system, is there a heat transfer material connecting the Shroud and the barrel? Seems like you could put a shrouded heatsink over a barrel greased in a thermal compound, like those used on CPUs, and disperse quite a bit of heat.
    "Lenin at least had an excuse for his mindlessness: he died of syphillis." - Standing Wolf
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  18. #68
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    On this StraightJacket system, is there a heat transfer material connecting the Shroud and the barrel? Seems like you could put a shrouded heatsink over a barrel greased in a thermal compound, like those used on CPUs, and disperse quite a bit of heat.
    The makers have told me that the space between the original barrel and shroud is filled with a proprietary heat sink media, and is actually the new, cool part of the system.

  19. #69
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    Well, even if they pack the space with LN2 or space shuttle tiles, there's only so much heat it can absorb before it reaches heat saturation... which is why super spiffy high ROF naval cannons draw in water, cycle it through the gun then dump it overboard. There's a heck of a lot of heat sink in the ocean.

    Unless something is done to increase surface area, and increase flow over the surface area the heat will stay right where it was... it'll just take longer to spike.

  20. #70
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    Unfortunately, there isn't much point continuing this thread until dogmush gets his rifle back from Teludyne.

  21. #71
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    For those keeping track, the cooling trend:


    I'll let you guys know when I get it back from TTI.
    Last edited by dogmush; April 9th, 2010 at 07:41 PM.

  22. #72
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    You are good at this stuff Dogmush! Very nice graphs. Should be interesting comparing the kitted rifle when you test again.

    Are the fellows at TTI aware of your interest in this testing thing? I would think they would be jumping happy to have you trying to document the wonderfullness of their invention. Will be breathlessly awaiting your further installments...

  23. #73
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    Update, I finally got to the UPS hub. (it's not conveinet to my house at all.) TTI should have the rifle Wed. Morning.

    Rob, I missed your question, but yes they're very aware of my test. When I first called them to I laid out my whole plan, and then when I called back last week I told them I was in FL, and they said "Oh, You're that guy." The folks at TTI are actually really cool to talk to, and have invited me in to see the shop the next time I get up that way. Good guys.

  24. #74
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    dogmush:

    ...and they said "Oh, You're that guy."
    Well I'm glad they know who you are. It certainly stands to reason that if they know God and everybody on this forum are watching, you're sure to get their best work. If it works, great! If it doesn't, we'll know to steer clear. While I'm a bit skeptical, I think they deserve a fair shot. I wouldn't be the first skeptic proven wrong by empirical data.

    I have a feeling that if dogmush's data indicate the system is what it claims to be, we'll get a hearty "see I told you so" from wristtwister. On the other hand, if the data don't substantiate the claims of TTI, we'll no doubt be assailed with

    I have no confidence that the data will actually prove anything useful.
    wristtwister:

    My opinions are based on 45 years of mechanical engineering, mechanical design, thermal and harmonic analysis, and actually owning the product being discussed and using it repeatedly... so if you want to post your "creds"... go for it. I not only know the product works, I can do the calculations to prove what its results should be in a given situation.
    Hiding behind the Wizard of Oz curtain of technical expertise won't buy you anything, especially when we've seen your posts.

    I used to design power boilers and have a pretty good understanding of thermodynamics, and what you can discover with temperature readings really isn't going to tell you anything.
    Temperature change is the fundamental driver in Thermodynamics.

    Since you're making all these "measurements", tell me how they relate to anything about the accuracy of the barrel system?
    (1) Time-temperature dependent material behavior and (2) coefficient of thermal expansion effects stiffness (thus harmonics)

    All this anal diagnosis isn't necessary
    Did you feel that way when you were designing boilers? Exactly how would one quantify their results without such a diagnosis?

    data is
    The plural of datum is data. The phrase data are is correct -- a pet peeve of most engineers I know.

    I just can tell you that what he's going to find out is useless data...
    A product designed to substantially decrease thermal effects doesn't need empirical validation? Since when?

    I can do the calculations to prove what its results should be in a given situation.
    Let's see them. We both know there are no analytical solutions for this type of problem. Did you mean you're doing a high Reynolds number fluids-structural interaction analysis? If so, what are your boundary conditions? Are your solutions strongly or weakly coupled? You get the point.

    Now, in all fairness your post on erosion was spot-on. Still, the point is don't hide behind your credentials when you're afraid of the data. The whole point of quantitative analysis is to let the numbers speak for themselves. If you're right, my hat's off to you. If your're proven wrong, be a man and own it.

    -Unit91

    MS, Aerospace Engineer
    Last edited by Unit91; April 19th, 2010 at 11:27 PM.

  25. #75
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    TTI's got the rifle, as of today.

    Two weeks and counting.

    I'm actually getting pretty excited. I really want to see this thing.

    I should add, due to pending patent issues, they asked me not to cut it up and share what's inside, and I agreed.

    Of course, if it works I'm not cutting open a good rifle anyway.

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