StraightJacket Litmus test.

[RecoilRob]

Hmmmmm.....once the Patent applications are filed, it doesn't matter who cuts what open and shows the inner workings, at least that is the way I understand the Patent system. First filed, first granted if found to be grantable.

So, you cut it open and find it stuffed full of Cream of Wheat......oh CRAP! I just let the 'secret' out! Really not understanding their being so paranoid about anyone knowing what is inside....makes me suspect that it isn't anything worthy of such secrecy.

And, I also asked WT for his calculations that he claimed he could produce a while back. (sound of crickets.....)



Edit: Wanted to add that I DO understand keeping 'things' Confidential and Secret. Had multiple clearances working on propulsion systems for Uncle....where we absolutely did not want the 'competition' finding out how we were doing things. Stealth technology had to be hush-hush or it wouldn't work for the guys and gals depending on it to protect them. To show how serious things were, we wore fresh gloves and body suits when cutting things on bandsaws, which then went with the parts to prevent us getting a chip under a fingernail or on our body that could be analyzed by the 'competition' (both domestic competitors and foreign enemies) and give the game away. No such conditions are present here with the SJ.

[dogmush]

I think you're right on the law, but they could have other valid reasons to not want the info out there yet. I can think of a couple of reasons they might not want it public knowledge yet, the most likely being they have a lot of their personal capitol tied up in this startup and they're being cautious.

It's neither here nor there however, They asked, and I said I wouldn't.

[fireflyfather]

The plural of datum is data. The phrase data are is correct -- a pet peeve of most engineers I know.

No offense, but that is why they are engineers, not linguists or grammarians. Data can be used as the plural form of a count-noun (or mass-noun), as in datum/data. It can also be used as a non-count (non-mass) noun. The first usage is the older usage, but in modern parlance (perhaps outside engineering circles) either is pretty much equally valid. The second usage is particularly common in computer science.

It may be a pet peeve of engineers, but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily 100% "right" in terms of linguistics. In the sense that one piece of information does not make a statistical universe, however, it is probably a good pet peeve to have, so long as it is in the interests of insuring that people use a large data set rather than a small one, or even one piece of information. In the sense of being offended by modern parlance it's pretty silly.

[Jim Watson]

But it's still a magazine, not a clip, right?

[wristtwister]

Unit 91...

Now, in all fairness your post on erosion was spot-on. Still, the point is don't hide behind your credentials when you're afraid of the data. The whole point of quantitative analysis is to let the numbers speak for themselves. If you're right, my hat's off to you. If your're proven wrong, be a man and own it.

Just for the record, I'm not afraid of the data. All it can possibly show is that the barrel reaches some temperature of equalibrium and then radiates off the rest of the heat from a simple thermal circuit. That's why I said it's pretty moot.

The heat will move down the barrel and out from the barrel through the straitjacket materials, and be radiated to atmosphere at some point. Knowing the temperature at any particular point is like knowing the water temperature in Galveston Bay. It has no useful purpose, unless you're fishing in Galveston Bay at the time and picking bait.

I've listened to months of B-S from all kinds of people on the boards that have no clue about the straitjackets. I own two of them, and shoot them on an almost daily basis. From the "I want to know how they work" crowd, to the "they can't possibly do that" bunch, I've heard every argument from every conceiveable angle about them. The problem is that if you haven't shot them, you don't have a clue what they'll do... and that's the long and short of it.

Some of the guys are pissed that TTI won't tell them their proprietary information, and you just need to get over it. All you have to do to disprove anything I've said is buy a gun and have it straitjacketed, and then post your shooting results. THere are several hundred of the guns out there now, and I would think that anybody that had one that was a problem would be shouting to high heaven about how they screwed up their guns... but all I've ever seen is satisfied customers leaving their shop and shooting their guns.

I was over there this afternoon, and one of the customers was picking up one gun and leaving another one... and already had several others. If it doesn't work, I wonder why he's bringing all those guns and spending all that money to have them straitjacketed? The real simple answer is that it works... and unlike some of the internet ninjas, he doesn't really have to know why it works... only that it does.

Did you feel that way when you were designing boilers? Exactly how would one quantify their results without such a diagnosis?

Boiler design and high temperature piping are applications of thermodynamics and fluid dynamics. I didn't need to know the flame temperature of the boiler to know it was hot, only the resultant effects that affected the design of the attached parts. We had design parameters that were met, and didn't have to know every detail about every piece in the design... sometimes, we simply bought equipment that was rated for the service we were using it for. We had maximum and minimum temperatures in lots of places, but knowing any one collection of that data didn't really tell you anything except the temperature at that point. That's why I asked the sarcastic question about what was the barrel temperature of a Remington 700 after it's 6th shot... if it's not pointed at anything, what does it matter?

Hiding behind the Wizard of Oz curtain of technical expertise won't buy you anything, especially when we've seen your posts.

I'm not hiding behind anything. I've got two straitjacketed rifles, shoot them regularly, and know the results both of my rifles and the others from customers of TTI. The rest of you guys are pulling these arguments out of your butts and have absolutely nothing to base them on... no technical expertise, no experience, and certainly not having one in your gun cabinet to test and announce your results.

If you want to be the smartest guy on the internet, have at it... It's like the argument made by Recoil Rob regarding me not producing any calculations for him... I sent him an email with the telephone number of someone within driving distance for him to go shoot the guns and report back... but he turned it down... It's easier to sit back and snipe rather than actually have to do something...

After the NRA meetings next month, TTI is going to be backlogged... and all you guys are going to be eating your words. My advice is to send a gun in early, because after next month... you'll have to simply take a number...

I've already got my guns...

WT

[Unit91]

No offense, but that is why they are engineers, not linguists or grammarians. Data can be used as the plural form of a count-noun (or mass-noun), as in datum/data. It can also be used as a non-count (non-mass) noun. The first usage is the older usage, but in modern parlance (perhaps outside engineering circles) either is pretty much equally valid. The second usage is particularly common in computer science.

Touché.

[dogmush]

All you have to do to disprove anything I've said is buy a gun and have it straitjacketed, and then post your shooting results.

I'm doing just that, and you're still in here cluttering up my thread telling me I'm wasting my time.

Several folks, myself included, have explained at differing levels of tech-speak why we're interested in the before/after heat readings. If you don't care, fine, don't care. But don't pretend I can't get useful information from them. By compareing the results I can infer how the SJ conducts and radiates the heat, and how that thermal circut has changed with the addition of the SJ. That interests me, and apparentlly some others on here. If it doesn't interest you, thats OK, but can I please request the simple politeness on of leaving us alone about it?

I've listened to months of B-S from all kinds of people on the boards that have no clue about the straitjackets. I own two of them, and shoot them on an almost daily basis. From the "I want to know how they work" crowd, to the "they can't possibly do that" bunch

That's because you posted snarky, BS claims about them. Lets not gloss over the fact that you claimed World Record Setting performance from this, with zero evidence to back it up. I think the SJ works, and I still don't believe you on that.

I was over there this afternoon, and one of the customers was picking up one gun and leaving another one... and already had several others. If it doesn't work, I wonder why he's bringing all those guns and spending all that money to have them straitjacketed? The real simple answer is that it works... and unlike some of the internet ninjas, he doesn't really have to know why it works... only that it does.

That's great for him, he's also polite enough not to come in here and sneer, so more kudos.

I'm not hiding behind anything. I've got two straitjacketed rifles, shoot them regularly, and know the results both of my rifles and the others from customers of TTI. The rest of you guys are pulling these arguments out of your butts and have absolutely nothing to base them on

Really? What did your Mossberg and Mosin shoot before the SJ? What did they shoot after with the same ammo? That's what I thought. You don't KNOW any more then we do.

If you want to be the smartest guy on the internet, have at it... It's like the argument made by Recoil Rob regarding me not producing any calculations for him... I sent him an email with the telephone number of someone within driving distance for him to go shoot the guns and report back... but he turned it down... It's easier to sit back and snipe rather than actually have to do something...

Or you could by a rifle, invest about 20 hours of your time and about $750 (so far) to figure out to what extent this system affects a rifle only to have to deal with 2 months of some "internet smart guy" making up BS claims and telling you you'll learn nothing interesting. (Or my favorite, you don't have "Need to Know") It must be easy to sit back and snipe.


You guys know what the really sad thing is? I actually have a pretty good idea what this system does buy now, and I'm pretty sure it's going to work. I think this test is going to turn out really neat. Everytime I talk with Alan or Mark on the phone I come away more excited that I started this little experiment. I'm going to end up with a pretty cool rifle that not everyone has. Then I log in here and find more craziness posted by our friend above.

The irony here is I really like TTI so far. It's the kind of company I like to support and the guys are pretty cool. Assuming the SJ lives up to their claims (not WT's) I could see praising them. Like WT, but with, you know, facts.

[wristtwister]

For all I care, you can collect barrel temperatures on Thursdays and make a graph... as for "snarky remarks", you guys should read your own posts sometime.

As for this being "your thread", I thought it was an open forum... next time post your notice that only people agreeing with you need post.

WT

[bdg146]

I'm very interested in your analysis dogmush.

Couple things I've been curious about that I haven't seen discussed... first is the longevity of the SJ, and second is the weight/balance of the finished product.

I'm wondering if the media between the barrel and the straightjacket will lose some of it's thermal properties over time. I'm not much of a materials person, so I don't even know how likely that is (although it's probably tough to say since we don't know what's inside).

As for weight, I think I read it adds a pound and a half to the rifle. I'm more interested in the balance though. I'm eager to see if it feels awkward in your hands at all. Most (if not all) of the people in the photos I've seen are shooting their SJed rifles using bipods. That's great, but for woods hunting, I find it less than practical.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

... as for "snarky remarks", you guys should read your own posts sometime.

We have, and we have considered that we are not the ones shilling a new product without providing all the relevant information.

Skepticism can be a healthy thing. Look what happened in the last presidential election when there wasn't enough of it.

[1894]

I've been following this thread for a while now. Dogmush, keep up the good work. I just have one question: am I the only one who has completely stopped reading WT's posts?

1894

[Dookie]

I've been following this thread for a while now. Dogmush, keep up the good work. I just have one question: am I the only one who has completely stopped reading WT's posts?

1894

no....

[jim147]

I've never used the ignore sitting before but that cleaned your thread right up for me.

jim

[slzy]

wrist,all you are doing is taking side bets.

[1894]

I've never used the ignore sitting before but that cleaned your thread right up for me.

Wow! Never knew I could do that. Thanks. Now, if I could only do that with the ex wife

[Unit91]

wristtwister:

If you want to be the smartest guy on the internet, have at it... It's like the argument made by Recoil Rob regarding me not producing any calculations for him... I sent him an email with the telephone number of someone within driving distance for him to go shoot the guns and report back... but he turned it down... It's easier to sit back and snipe rather than actually have to do something...

Let's be straight here: this isn't a technical forum, so I didn't bust your chops nearly as hard as I would've on the physicsforums or elsewhere. Still...

Maybe I've done a bad job of communicating my real point here. There is a big difference between you and TTI. I have no problem with TTI selling a product that may or may not be revolutionary. If all they've done is fine tune the current "wheel" instead of inventing a new one, more power to them. I hope they make a killing because that's what capitalism is all about. Incidentally, I'm sure the temperature variation will be less with the barrel SJ'd -- you've added lots of mass.

I DO have a problem with you making absolutely outrageous claims like "I can do the calculations", then ducking for cover behind "I'm an engineer, you wouldn't understand" or "it's classified" type remarks. Both of those are huge red flags, especially when I AM an engineer and I DO understand -- and so do the vast majority of the bright folks on this forum.

I think it's terrific that you've found a good product from a good group of guys. I think it's terrific that you're happy with the whole situation. But for the love of God, stop embarrassing yourself with "factoids" that couldn't possibly be substantiated. Whether you care to admit it or not, your credibility here is shot for the time being.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Jim and 1894,

You are doing yourself a disservice. When he is not trying to sell Teludyne barrels, Wristtwister has a lot of good things to say. The ignore setting keeps you from seeing all of his posts regardless of the thread. You would miss out on a lot of good observations and advice.

Besides, we all have blind spots, right?

[1894]

Sheik: Let's count this as not the first thing I've learned from or been reminded of by you. You often have some fairly smart things to say as well. Please accept my apologies that one of them had to be a scolding for me.

Wristtwister: I'll apologize to you as well. It was a long day at work and I let my lack of patience get the better of me. I'd like to offer you a deal of sorts. I'll keep to TheHighRoad and un-ignore you, if you keep to it as well and allow the rest of the us to appreciate (& scrutinize) Dogmush's effort without trying so hard to live up to your name. Skepticism does not connote negativity in the scientific world, it is in fact held in the highest regard. One cannot prove that a hypothesis is always true, only the circumstances in which it may (sometimes) fail. From Dogmush's posts it seems that the folks at TTI are about as welcoming as a startup can be toward a customer's public evaluation of their work. I suppose it is not fair for me to ask you to be more patient with him than I was with you, but there is a solid chance we can all learn something significant from this process. If you are right, his results will only back up your arguments. Give him (& TTI) the chance to live up to your claims.

[wristtwister]

Guys, I have no axe to grind with anyone.

When I posted the first thread about the straitjacket system, it was to help rifle shooters with the newest technology out there (not my call, but industry analysts) that would improve their scores, bring their old rifles back to life, and make them comfortable to shoot. Nothing else.

As an engineering type, and someone involved with heat transfer for almost 45 years, I understand how the technology works, and while the information about it is proprietary, there are other reasons that it is not made generally available to the public. I make no claims that it's too complicated to understand, but the math involved might be a bit above most people's "figuring skills".

There are tons of people on this forum that have conventional shooting experience and knowledge about conventional rifle shooting. The straitjacket system changes that paradigm, and while the skeptics want to say "its only a this or that"... the results speak for themselves. As I've explained previously, when I first announced it as a "recoil reduction system", it was because that was what was being worked on at the time... it was actually an accuracy system, and the heat control and recoil reduction were byproducts of that effort.

I own two straitjacketed rifles... a Mossberg ATR 30-06 and the new Olympic Mosin, and I know what kind of results I get with them. Unfortunately, I repeat myself, but I have bad eyes and cataracts, and still outshoot 90 percent of the people who show up at the ranges where I shoot... and I've never claimed to be a rifleman. I'm a pistol shooter... and have been for 40 plus years.

When Dogmush gets his rifle back, he will be more than satisfied that it is a hell of a lot more accurate. I still maintain that the temperature readings he takes won't mean anything, because the barrel will try to equalize it's temperature in two directions, and both are simple thermal circuits.

What will be proved, is that his rifle is more accurate and much more comfortable to shoot. It's been tested with Remington Core Loks for "before and after" targets, and there's half a box of them waiting for the "after" shoot. I've been friends with the guys at TTI since the company was founded, and I haven't met a customer with a complaint yet. They had a couple that messed up their gun's finish after getting them back, but not a single complaint about the how the system worked or a failure to produce the results expected.

A lot of the banter on THR has been personal attacks on me and from the skeptics who never believe anything until it knocks them out of their chair, so no apology is really necessary. I'm a big boy, and criticism doesn't really bother me, especially when it comes from people who haven't shot one of the guns or ever even seen one. As I said, "a lot of conventional shooting experience"... not "shooting a straitjacketed rifle" experience.

TTI's technology is getting ready to go "big time" in the "gun rags" and at the NRA National Meetings in Charlotte, and when that happens, all those skeptics who don't believe it works can take a number to get their rifles fixed, because they will be busy as one armed paper hangers.

Sometimes you need to actually read what my sig line says... it's something I firmly believe... it's from the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" and it sums up how I try to live my life. "What man is a man that does not try to make the world a better place?" My "handle" is from 47 years of jujutsu training, so I don't usually run from a fight either, especially when it's all talk.

The losers in this fight are the people who don't get their rifles fixed and start enjoying comfortable, accurate shooting without having to sell the farm. The guys at TTI have fixed rifles costing $295 (mine) and rifles costing thousands (benchrest, sniper competition, large caliber hunting guns) and not one complaint... but a lot of repeat business.

Like I said, I have no axe to grind with anyone, and skepticism is fine if it's kept under control... but life sure is better when you take time to actually know what you're talking about before you start haranging it. Those guys at TTI don't sell guns, they don't make rifles... they make rifles better... and do a damn good job of it. What's said to or about me really doesn't matter.

WT

[RecoilRob]

You know, WT, that when you PM someone....which is a private conversation....it is supposed to remain private. You have chosen to break that rule by mentioning your PM to me in an attempt (fail) to discredit me and my observations re:SJ barrel tech.

For the public record....WT did give me a local fellow's # with the offer to shoot his rifles. I politely declined, a couple of times with gracious thanks to the fellows offer of generosity.

You are trying to say that if someone hasn't shot one of the rifles that his observations/comments/criticisms are invalid. I dispute that and challenge you to show one of my comments where I reflect negatively on the accuracy improvement possible with the TTI modification.

My comments have been directed solely at your statements that have been impossible with our current knowledge of physics, or impossible with our current knowledge of mechanics. Nothing more. And....you have failed to offer explanations (even though you said you could) or apologies for mistatements.

I've stuck my foot in my mouth before and said things that proved to be inaccurate...but tried to make things right once I found my error. It is the High Way and most of the members here do the same.

You stand out from the crowd as one of the more aggressive and confrontational people on this forum. Yet one with seemingly the least amount of ammo to back up his claims.

Sorry to call you out here as I know it isn't proper on this forum, but when you make private and personal information public, a public response is warranted.

[wristtwister]

Rob,
not trying to start a flame war here, but I've made the same offer to anyone to come shoot the rifles and have sent dozens of emails to people arranging for them to shoot with people in their area... and I don't discount anyone's "traditional rifle skills" with a traditional rifle... but like a doctor that hasn't delivered a baby, it's a little presumptuous to talk about the experience without actually having some. As I said, there are dozens of people on the forum with traditional experiences... not so many with straitjackets.

I apologize for releasing the info that you had a private invite, but it seems that you went right back into your argument that I somehow couldn't provide the data you were looking for almost immediately after refusing to contact the guy and shoot the rifles. I"m pretty open handed about what I do, and I consider it a bit two-faced to refuse first hand experience and then try to claim I'm holding data back or making it up.

Like I said previously, I don't have any axes to grind with anybody... and I don't try to play any dirty tricks on people or craft them into "stepping in it" on discussion boards. I can get just as mad as anybody else when people imply that just because I don't tell them something they're still entitled to know it. There are two answers to everything in most cases, YES and NO.

There are also two types of experience... some, and none. I was trying to arrange for you to actually have some with the rifles. I thought I did it in a gentlemanly way, and when you refused the offer and then started back on the same discussion with the same argument, I kind of thought that to be sort of "schoolboy bullying".

The offer to call Chris and shoot the guns is still on the table if you want to take advantage of it. He's ex-Special Forces, and knows shooting. If you want to ask him questions, have at it. The rest of my position about this board was in my previous post.

WT

[JWF III]

but the math involved might be a bit above most people's "figuring skills".

Condesending and arrogant.

the skeptics who never believe anything until it knocks them out of their chair

So you go out and spend $300-$700 on a product just because someone told you it was good?

Sorry, but many people (myself included) won't spend money until something is shown to work.

And just for the record, and I hope the people at TTI read this, it's because of your remarks in THIS THREAD that I will never buy a TTI product. They may be good people, but they need better control on who does their advertising. Paid or unpaid. It's their loss, and I'm sorry for that. I like helping new companies (with good products) get a foot hold in an industry. But I will not be talked down to by anyone. Especially someone trying to sell me on a product.

I'll take the same amount of money and invest in a Lilja, Douglass, Shilen (etc., etc., etc.) barrel, and get the exact same, or better results. But I'll have a new barrel, new throat, new rifling. Not one with 5k+ rounds through it.


Sorry for the rant guys. It's just the continued condesending remarks hit my button.

Wyman

[dogmush]

Gentlemen and ladies.

If I may.

As WT pointed out It's a free internet, but as the starter of this thread may I make a request?

We've all gotten a little less then High Road here, and started sniping at each other. I get frusterated too. But I started this test in a new thread because the other three (or four) SJ threads had gotten this way. It's been almost two pages since I had any data to post, and the rifle's being worked on as we speak.

In this intrests of keeping this thread High Road, Unlocked, and easy to navigate can we just wait on the results? Any of us are free to start a new thread discussing the thermal equations, poor marketing, or anything else about TTI, but this thread is already starting to go bad, and I'd rather have both the before and after in the same thread.

So can we all (myself included) just let it go for a couple weeks? Or at least take it to PM or another thread?

I already feel bad for anyone new to this drama having to wade through 4 pages to not find an ending yet.

Thanks.

[nplant]

At this point, I'm not sure I'm even interested in the results anymore. Drama is for movies.

[wristtwister]

Wyman,
Ask the next 20 people you run into how their complex algebra, integral calculus, and differential calculus skills are, and get back to me. Unless you're on a college campus or walking around an engineering department, I'll bet the majority of them won't have a clue. That's not condescending or arrogant, just reality.

WT