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Thread: StraightJacket Litmus test.

  1. #126
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    It's really interesting to see the apparent improvements. I can't wait to see the temperature tests. Keep up the good work, Dogmush.
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  2. #127
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    Anybody had a SJ put on a 1-moa gun to turn it into a 1/2-moa or better gun? Or a 1/2 into a 1/4?

    Any sales to any national-level benchrest shooters yet? They're always trying to save weight, so SJ a sporter barrel instead of using a fat barrel?

    I'm just curious because I doubt I'll be buying any 5-moa or 8-moa guns in this lifetime and paying to have them SJ'd.

    And I'm trying to imagine what a SJ would look like on a $2000 Cooper. Heck, can they SJ an old Marlin .35 lever? That would be a sight, a muzzle brake on it.

    John

  3. #128
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    The thing I have found most important in shooting surplus ammo is its' runout. Culling ammo that is over .006" (on BMG) let me shoot .75 MOA @ 600 yds. Including flyers. Unculled rounds would shoot crazy wild. Finally got the idea to spin-check them and proved that the 'bent' ones were the ones going out of the group.

    If you get to do more shooting, you might try checking the ammo beforehand and seeing if some are 'crooked' and by how much. Culling the five best-straightest rounds would give you an indication of the rifles' accuracy potential.

    And, as always, Great Job Dogmush!!

  4. #129
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    If you get to do more shooting, you might try checking the ammo beforehand and seeing if some are 'crooked' and by how much. Culling the five best-straightest rounds would give you an indication of the rifles' accuracy potential.
    Great, Now I have to dig up my dial indicator. That's a good idea though, I'll give it a try along with some handloads.

  5. #130
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    And I'm trying to imagine what a SJ would look like on a $2000 Cooper.
    I'll try to get a picture of one on a $6000 Lapua Improved, if that will suffice.

    can they SJ an old Marlin .35 lever
    Sorry, but they only straitjacket bolt guns and AR's, so far. Guns with tubular magazines and hardware hanging off the barrel create maintenance problems and interfere with the heat circuit, so while they can probably install one, I doubt if they would. Some guns, by design, create maintenance problems or access problems to the areas that need to be straitjacketed, and it's not reasonable to install one when it would cause you to be unable to do maintenance on the gun. Generally, they can straitjacket any bolt rifle, but they have run into a couple of exceptions, but not many.

    WT
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  6. #131
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    JohnBT...
    here's the straitjacket installed on a $6000 Lapua Improved used for 1000 yard competition.

    WT
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  7. #132
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    Thanks, looks like just another bench gun. $6k makes it a grand or two more expensive than some, but not unusually so, unless the $6k includes the scope. I was referring to something a little more traditional with the SJ installed - like a nice Cooper.

    I just suppose I don't see the need for the SJ on any really accurate rifle. And I'd get rid of an inaccurate one. But that's me.

    I still haven't checked benchrest.com to see who is using one in competition. I've been busy at heck.

    JT

  8. #133
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    I just suppose I don't see the need for the SJ on any really accurate rifle.
    Okay, if you're satisfied that keeping the rifle cool and throat erosion down aren't worth the price, then you're probably right. If eliminating heating problems and erosion are something you'd like to control, then you probably would want one.

    Like car models, everybody doesn't want a Lexus... and people who are conventional shooters and haven't used straitjackets on their guns will try lots of other things before they get to the performance level where the straitjacket will shine. They'll try "heavier barrels", trigger jobs, recrowning... all the tricks for accuracy, but they will still have the same heating and erosion problems with whatever they do, and won't have the capability to pump rounds downrange like you can with the straitjacket.

    I've had a lot of conventional shooters tell me "all I need is X and I can match what the straitjacket does..." and I haven't had one yet to prove it. They still have the heat problems, the barrel harmonics, and while their accuracy might have improved, it doesn't seem to take the quantum leap that rifles do with the straitjacket installed. I've seen groups drop as much as 40 percent using "box" ammo, and even more using precision loads... so if they can do "X" and match the performance change, where's the proof?

    While all this can be applied to benchrest rifles, etc. the basic reason for the straitjacket is to make ordinary hunting rifles shoot like precision rifles... and while the argument continues to exist with conventional shooters, those people shooting straitjacketed rifles show us targets every day that are phenomenal for "ordinary hunting rifles" and "old service rifles".

    It simply makes the barrel do what it was designed to do, without all the heat changes, harmonic whip, and recoil ordinarily associated with shooting. It's more comfortable to shoot, and the results are repeatable regardless of how many rounds you choose to throw downrange. If you're comfortable sitting around waiting for your barrel to cool down, you probably don't need a straitjacket... and you'll notice the throat erosion in your gun long before you see it in one that is treated with a SJ barrel.

    Accuracy is accuracy... and how you choose to get there is a matter of how much you spend and what you spend it on. Straitjacketed barrels are a $2-300 solution to a several thousand dollar problem.

    WT
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  9. #134
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    You're starting to sound like Billy Mays.

    and while their accuracy might have improved, it doesn't seem to take the quantum leap that rifles do with the straitjacket installed. I've seen groups drop as much as 40 percent using "box" ammo, and even more using precision loads...
    20-25% improvement in accuracy with box ammo. It's post 115 if you missed it. I'd be of the opinion that match loads have a lower percentage of improvment simply because there's less room to work.

  10. #135
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    More graphs!!!!

    Did the cooling test tonight. Data first then discussion.

    I tested at four data points. Internal chamber, inside the barrel at mid point, inside the barrel 2" in from muzzle, and external chamber 1" forward of the barrel nut. There's one graph per data point, with before and after on each graph.

    Ambient temp was 72*F for all tests.





  11. #136
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    These graphs don't tell the full story though. On this test, what I did was place the probes then put a metal rod down the bore, and heat the rod with a Propane tourch from both ends untill I got close to the desired temp. On the stock test I was aiming for 175* but due to uneven heating they didn't all start right at 175*. Once the target temp was reached, I removed the heat, hit the timer and started taking measurements for 20 min.

    Unfortunatly once the Straight Jacket was installed, and the probes were back in place, I ran into a problem. My propane torch didn't have enough heat to heat up the bore to the starting temperature. The barrel was radiating heat faster then the rod was conducting it into the bore. What I ended up having to do was use the propane torch at the chamber end, and move to my oxy-actylene torch to heat the conducting rod. You'll see the midpoint graph starts a lot higher then it should on the after test, and that's due to heating the rod directly at that point with the torch and then shoving it back down the bore.

    So not only did the SJ cool faster then the stock barrel, it took significantly more BTU's to get to test temp then before. Whatever's in there is definatlly a good heat conductor.

    Also, this answers the question of weather the shroud and compund are insulating the barrel or not.

    The system definatly moves heat out fast. I'll go back to the range either tomorrow or Friday for the shooting heat up test, but I'm betting we'll see that the exterior of the shroud heats up slower then the barrel did before. That would happen if it was just filled with sand.

    UPS willing, I'll have some handloads for that test, or early next week, and I'll make the longer drive to the 100yd range to shoot for tite groups.

  12. #137
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    "but they will still have the same heating and erosion problems"

    What heating and erosion problems? I don't hunt prairie dogs by the hundreds or own a machine gun. Even the shooting pace of a benchrest shooter doesn't appear to generate an unreasonable amount of heat. Throat erosion is going to happen shot by shot no matter what. It's that blast of hot stuff pushing the bullet that does it.

    I still don't see why you think it's the end-all and be-all solution for everybody.

    So, any big name benchrest shooters won any matches using the SJ yet? They know rifles and extreme accuracy.

    John

  13. #138
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    POI did change as the rifle heated up though.
    That does not sound good.
    I have a few facts and a lot of opinions.

  14. #139
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    Throat erosion is going to happen shot by shot no matter what. It's that blast of hot stuff pushing the bullet that does it.
    Metallurgically, what causes throat erosion is the chemical salts in the primers etching the throat of the gun along with friction. The hot gases only blow off the micro-flakes where the chemical reaction has taken place. When the heat is wicked out, there is little if any throat erosion, unless the gun is cleaned with ammonia based cleansers or treated roughly with steel or wire brushes during cleaning.

    The straitjacket simply makes the barrel do what it was designed to do... provide a path for the bullet. It takes off the heat, and is like a cold bore shot every time... unless all that data Dogmush just printed is incorrect.

    You guys can't have it both ways...
    So not only did the SJ cool faster than the stock barrel, it took significantly more BTU's to get to test temp than before.
    Conventional shooters have been blaming "hot gases" for throat erosion as long as I've been shooting, and they've been wrong most of the time. The erosion was caused by the chemical salts reacting to the steel in the chamber and barrel throat. All the "hot gases" EVER did was to blow off the microscopic flakes of metal that had chemically been "scabbed off" or pushed off by bullet friction. The heat of the gases only helped to expand the metal so the flakes "perked up" and the gas had a clear surface to push against. With the chamber being cooler, that doesn't happen.

    If you look at Dogmush's chamber temperatures, there was almost a 6 minute difference between the straitjacketed barrel reaching 150 degrees and the pre-treatment barrel reaching that point... so the residual heat in the conventional barrel remained in the throat of the chamber, while the straitjacketed barrel wicked it off. There was a similar difference in the external receiver temperature dropping to 140 degrees.... something like 4-1/2 minutes.

    The system definitly moves heat out fast.
    So, you're either dealing with a colder gas situation, or else all that snake oil and pixie dust actually works. Unless somebody's got some way to make bullets fire cooler, I would guess the latter.

    I still don't see why you think it's the end-all and be-all solution for everybody.
    I don't really think I've ever said that. I do think that if you want your gun to last a long time, and you want to shoot accurately, it's a solution that can be done inexpensively to any bolt gun or AR. I've got several conventional rifles that don't have straitjackets on them, but only because of cash flow.. otherwise, I'd have every one of them stratijacketed that I could.

    I find it interesting that people who have never shot one of these rifles seem to have all the answers about why they don't work, and the people who do shoot them affirm that they do what they're advertised to do. Dogmush said his POI changed as the barrel heated up, but while he and I have a disagreement about "core groups", I would suspect it was ammo related if he was shooting Wolf ammo. (And that's not a slam against Wolf ammo... it just means that the inconsistency in it showed up.) I've seen and tested a lot of guns with TTI's guys, and I shot a 3 shot cluster with Dogmush's gun that measured about 1.25" after Al shot his 10 round test target... so the POI didn't change in those 13 shots. Those 3 were 180 grain Core Lokts that I borrowed from a guy who was shooting with us that day.

    The guys at TTI don't manufacture rifles, and they don't sell rifles... they simply work on rifles and make them work better... as well as they can regardless of how they're built. The results vary, but I haven't seen a gun come through there yet that didn't show about a 50 percent drop in group size... and that's not from "measuring every group", but from generally seeing the targets that came back from the range. EVERY gun has a better heat signature and a drop in felt recoil when the entire system is on the gun.

    WT
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  15. #140
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    The results vary, but I haven't seen a gun come through there yet that didn't show about a 50 percent drop in group size
    Except, you know, the one rifle we have good documentation for.
    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by wristtwister
    I've seen and tested a lot of guns with TTI's guys, and I shot a 3 shot cluster with Dogmush's gun that measured about 1.25" after Al shot his 10 round test target... so the POI didn't change in those 13 shots. Those 3 were 180 grain Core Lokts that I borrowed from a guy who was shooting with us that day.
    1) Did you have permission from Dogmush to shoot his rifle? I'd be pretty mad if I had a gun in the shop and found out someone other than the smith had been shooting it.

    2) What range? A 1.25" group can be anywhere from pretty crappy to spectacular depending on the range. Without the range, the group size is meaningless.

    3) Shooting a three shot 1.25" group does not tell us that the POI didn't change. At most it can tell us that grouping remained consistent if a POI shift occurred.

  17. #142
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    Well, ClickClick... when you performance test things, you usually get more than one person's evaluation, and input. I happened to be the guy at the range with the gunsmith when it was tested, so if you get your panties in a wad over quality control firing, I guess you'd be all upset at anything a gunsmith did to your gun. If Dogmush thinks me sending 3 rounds down range to help Al test his weapon was a problem, I'll certainly apologize to him...

    Since we were shooting with a "shop" scope, it was zeroed to the targets at the shop range (100 yards). Part of consistency is being able to pick up the rifle and have two shooters aim and hit the same targets without re-zeroing.

    It wasn't hard to see if the POI changed. We looked at Al's target and at my target. The groups were in the same general area. It was being fired to make sure it wasn't nicking the muzzle brake, and that it was shooting consistently, which it was.

    I thought they did an excellent job on Dogmush's gun, and the fit and finish on it was exceptional compared to what was sent in. I think even he would admit that. I thought the duracoated finish looked good.

    So let me think about this for a minute... he sent a gun in to be straitjacketed, they did the work and quality tested it, then duracoated it and made it look better, so he should be mad that they did their work with quality control? Oooookay....

    I think somebody is just trying to be a PITA...

    WT
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  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by wristtwister
    So let me think about this for a minute... he sent a gun in to be straitjacketed, they did the work and quality tested it, then duracoated it and made it look better, so he should be mad that they did their work with quality control? Oooookay....
    No, he should be mad that a non TTI employee was handling his firearm. There's no question about TTIs quality or craftsmanship. It's an ethics issue.

    If you took your car into the shop and found out the mechanics buddy was driving it around wouldn't you be pissed? I would be. Just like I would be pretty pissed if I found out some guy who was buddies with a gunsmith was doing "quality control testing" on my firearm.

    That aside...

    You shot a 1.5" group at 100 yards = 1.5 MoA. Let's just take this as uncontested for arguments sake... Congratulations, for $150 + SJ cost he now owns a rifle as accurate as a new off the shelf Marlin and not quite as good as a Tikka or Savage.

    So, thanks to Dogmush for his testing, but no verifiable evidence presented to date demonstrates that this system actually has any tangible benefit other than some barrel cooling that can't be accomplished by simply buying a modern factory standard entry level hunting rifle.

  19. #144
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    If I sent my chainsaw/gun/car to a specific dealer for modification/repair and that dealer allowed a non-employee to use my equipment without my consent...that is just wrong, unprofessional and unethical. Period. I would be pissed.
    And it is really difficult to piss me off But that would for sure.
    I hate to add this but I can shoot groups like that with my Grandson el cheapo Mossberg bolt action .243....and I cant see for nothing

  20. #145
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    Easy Guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClickClickD'oh
    1) Did you have permission from Dogmush to shoot his rifle?
    While I didn't explicitly give WT permission to shoot it, I did explicitly give TTi permission to live fire test it in any fashion they deemed neccissary. If they wanted to let him shoot it, they had permission to do so.

    TTI and I have had a lot of phone calls. It's actually one of the things I'll bring up in my final write-up. I haven't even tried to report them all here, as it's not really important to the test, and there's a lot of them. Suffice to say that they didn't do anything without talking to me, and I have absolutly ZERO issues with their customer service.

    Quote Originally Posted by WristTwister
    and I shot a 3 shot cluster with Dogmush's gun that measured about 1.25" after Al shot his 10 round test target... so the POI didn't change in those 13 shots. Those 3 were 180 grain Core Lokts that I borrowed from a guy who was shooting with us that day.
    1. I have Al's target, and it ain't 1.25". Although I could find three shots on it that close. Refer here to my comments on the "what do you call a group" thread.
    and
    2. POI change (such as it was) was small, and didn't happen untill 25-30 shots. I mentioned it in passing, as it's evident on the targets, but don't get all wound up in it. Given my results from the Golden Bear, POI change could have just been from switching boxes. Seriously, don't get to wound up on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClickClickD'oh
    You shot a 1.5" group at 100 yards = 1.5 MoA. Let's just take this as uncontested for arguments sake... Congratulations, for $150 + SJ cost he now owns a rifle as accurate as a new off the shelf Marlin and not quite as good as a Tikka or Savage.
    I wouldn't go there yet. First, and I'm sorry about this WT, but having followed his threads pretty closely I don't really think WT is very good with a rifle yet. He needs some more trigger time. I definatly would not charectorize 1.5MOA as the intrinsic accuraccy of this rifle. I'm not sure what all I do have yet, but it's premature to say WT's group is it's limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClickClickD'oh
    So, thanks to Dogmush for his testing, but no verifiable evidence presented to date demonstrates that this system actually has any tangible benefit other than some barrel cooling that can't be accomplished by simply buying a modern factory standard entry level hunting rifle.
    Test ain't over yet. What I have is evidence that the barrel cools faster, takes more time to heat up, and is, as many variables accounted for as I can, about 25% more accurate then it was. That ain't bad. Let me finish up some testing, and we'll see what there is to see. I'm not jumping to any conclusion yet, good or bad.

    It would be nice to have been able to do this test with a couple different types of ammo, but the fact is I'm not made of $$, so it is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by WristTwister
    I thought they did an excellent job on Dogmush's gun, and the fit and finish on it was exceptional compared to what was sent in. I think even he would admit that.
    I believe I did say that, actually.

    Also, a word about context. It's very easy to assign more information to things then actually exists. WT thinks his Mosin is working perfectly, but he's got bad ammo. CCD read into this test that I have a 1.5 MOA rifle. Neither of these has evidence yet. I'm not going to get into the Mosin issue in this thread(it has it's own) but as far as my rifle's accuracy, what I have actual evidence of is that it's about 23% more accurate with Golden Bear after the SJ then before. If I want to go a little farther, I could say that it's about 35% more accurate with 180gr core-lockt after the SJ (I have copies of those targets). That's it. Full Stop. I know nothing [yet] about the inherent accuraccy of the rifle, I just know it shoots more accurately now. Don't read more then there is.

    On to intrinsic accuraccy:

    I plan on doing the heat up test this afternoon. (fingers crossed) and I have ready to go 20 rds of Golden Bear that I pulled apart and loaded with 51gn of Win 760 and topped with a 168gr Nosler HPBT. Brass and primer are still russian. We'll see what they do. Since the heat test is first, they'll be shot through a hot bore as well. That should give us a feel for just how bad the Russian ammo was. Also, the folks at TTI (who obviously read THR ) called me earlier this week and shipped me about 50 cases they had. They won't get here in time for this afternoon's shoot, but in the near future I'll work up some loads with the Nosler's and some 168gn Match King's and we'll be able to see what the rifle can do. After that we'll be able to draw some conclusions as to whether my rifle is better, worse, or the same as an off the shelf Tikka or Savage.

    So in conclusion (of this post at least) bear with me. The end is in sight, but let's wait till all the data is in before we go off half-cocked on anything. I have the better part of a page long review written, when this is all done I'll post my thoughts on the whole process, along with summeries of all the data. Give me a little to get it done.

    Yes, it would have been better to shoot some handloads before the SJ as well, but real world intervenes again.

  21. #146
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    While I didn't explicitly give WT permission to shoot it, I did explicitly give TTi permission to live fire test it in any fashion they deemed neccissary. If they wanted to let him shoot it, they had permission to do so.
    Just for the record, I don't shoot anything of TTI's unless I have permission to do so, and often, the owners of the guns actually ask me to shoot it and give them an opinion. My limited vision is the only problem I have with shooting rifles, and while there's more to the story, that will have to do it for now.

    Rifles I own right now include a Ruger Ranch Rifle (.223) AR-15 (2), Savage 110 (.300 Win Mag) Winchester 70 (.270) Saiga (7.62x39) Remington 700 (.308) Mossberg ATR (30-06) Mosin Nagant 91/30 and "Olympic custom" (7.62X54) Marlin .22 cal and a Ruger .44 magnum carbine... so it's not my first time at the dance... and I don't judge my shooting performance by what's said on the internet, or what a particular group with a particular rifle happens to be on one particular day. Every one of them has it's own particular idiosyncresis, and I adjust to them as I shoot.

    I realize that all the "Davy Crocketts" out there with a keyboard only shoot into one hole, or catch the bullets in their teeth, but they fail to show up where and when I happen to be shooting to "show me how it's done". Maybe I don't know anything about shooting, and maybe I know a lot about shooting... shooting with me, or against me in competition is the way to find out.

    Here, we're talking about "box ammo" and surplus ammo shooting... not precision loads and actual "firearms capability". That's a whole different discussion, and a whole different set of parameters.

    BTW, don't forget that the NRA national meetings are in Charlotte, NC this weekend. It's the "gun show of the year"...

    WT
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  22. #147
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    I got to the range today. My close range was closed, so I actually got had to go to the local 100yd indoor range. (god I hate Shoot Straight). The upside is I got some targets shot, the downside is I had to drive across two counties at 5 PM.

    The heat graphs take a little number crunching in Excel to even the X axis out, so it'll be a little bit.

    Chamber temp was noticabley lower, here's that data:


    I also got some targets shot for groups with good ammo. I gotta take the pups to the park right now, but I'll hit you guys up when I have time to type the comentary.

  23. #148
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    Good on ya, Dogmush!

    Dogmush--The amount of time & effort you're putting into this project is just unbelievable, and please do not think it is not appreciated--IT IS APPRECIATED!!!

    Glad to have it re-confirmed, also, that you're not neglecting the canine units.

    Anyhow, keep up the good work.
    God Bless America

    Smokey Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    I realize that all the "Davy Crocketts" out there with a keyboard only shoot into one hole
    Funny you should mention that. Stay tuned, I gotta work tomorrow, but with any luck I'll have some time for this project.

  25. #150
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    Dogmush,
    I definitly would not characterize 1.5MOA as the intrinsic accuraccy of this rifle.
    I didn't say that was the intrinsic accuracy of the gun, I said I shot a 1.25" cluster of 3 shots with box ammo. I would guess the gun is sub-MOA with handloads. Since everybody seems to hang on every word, let's make it clear that I think the guns are doing what they're supposed to do... the discrepencies are in ammo, windage and technique.

    BTW, you don't have this target... it's lying on Al's desk at the shop. I shot that cluster on a clean target. My 3 shots weren't part of what Al sent you.

    WT
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    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

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