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Thread: StraightJacket Litmus test.

  1. #151
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    That comment was aimed at ClickClickD'oh. He said:
    Congratulations, for $150 + SJ cost he now owns a rifle as accurate as a new off the shelf Marlin and not quite as good as a Tikka or Savage.
    I said I had copies of Al's targets. You're right, I haven't seen yours.

  2. #152
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    All right, I got the graphs done. As predicted, it heats slower with the SJ.

    Earlier in this thread I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by dogmush
    I guess I should also mention planned results. Whatever else the straight jacket does, it shrouds the barrel, so I fully expect lower external barrel temps. For me to consider the system successful at controling heat I'd want to see the slope of those three lines drop. If they just translate down 50 or so degrees, all we're seeing is good insulation.
    And indeed the slope of the trends did decrease. You can get a SJ hot it just takes some more. The chamber interior measurements are some of the hottest, which makes sense because that's where the SJ media is the thinnest.

    Heat graphs:






    It seems to me that whatever is in there is doing a good job of conducting heat to the shroud exterior, and then radiating to the air. I wouldn't recommend pressing your face to my barrel after 40 shots though. It was still pretty hot to the touch.

  3. #153
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    I don't think anybody ever said you can't saturate the heat sink of the straitjacket, it just takes LOTS of ammo to do it. The conventional rifle barrels are hot after a couple of shots, and the straitjacket doesn't get hot until somewhere between 20 to 30 rounds (hot, being defined as hot enough to make you want to put it down). My experience is that on a cold day, (+34 degrees) I put 40 rounds through a .308 and could barely warm my hands on it.

    We used to set water heaters at 120 degrees, which was where it started to get hot enough to burn the skin... so using that landmark as a benchmark, check the graphs and see where that point is reached on the shot count and time lapses. Without knowing the outside temperature, it's impossible to determine the radiation rate of the applied heat, so where the barrel gets hot enough to put up against your face safely can't be calculated, but estimated by looking at the temp chart.

    Al and I pumped 96 rounds through my Mosin Olympic a few days ago, and the barrel got hotter from sitting in the sun than from the ammo we ran through it. We were shooting it in the shade, so it was actually cooling down for the first part of our shooting time. Try figuring out how to graph that......

    WT
    "What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

  4. #154
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    Dogmush, I don't think you should put more energy (heat) into the SJ parts to reach the same starting temperature as the original parts starting temperautre. Well maybe a proportional amount more to account for the increase in mass of the SJ system... if the SJ system is harder to heat up then it's doing it's job... just my opinion. BTW, Dogmush, your temperature work and graphing is very informative to me... I would expect the barrel life to be extended on say a 300WM from 1500 rounds to maybe 2000-2500. Thanks for your hard work and insightful study, it's been fun following you.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemistpc5
    don't think you should put more energy (heat) into the SJ parts to reach the same starting temperature as the original parts starting temperautre. Well maybe a proportional amount more to account for the increase in mass of the SJ system... if the SJ system is harder to heat up then it's doing it's job... just my opinion.
    You're right, it would have been fairer to the system to but the same amount of BTU's into it and then measured the lower start temp and cooling. Unfortunatly I didn't forsee the SJ working that well, and so didn't measure the amount of heat. I just heated it up with a Propane torch untill I got to the start temp. No real way to recreate that amount of heat.



    Without knowing the outside temperature, it's impossible to determine the radiation rate of the applied heat, so where the barrel gets hot enough to put up against your face safely can't be calculated, but estimated by looking at the temp chart.
    Ambient temp was 75*F for both tests.

    Al and I pumped 96 rounds through my Mosin Olympic a few days ago, and the barrel got hotter from sitting in the sun than from the ammo we ran through it. We were shooting it in the shade, so it was actually cooling down for the first part of our shooting time. Try figuring out how to graph that......
    Unless you were waiting a minute or more between shots, no, it wasn't.

  6. #156
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    Unless you were waiting a minute or more between shots, no, it wasn't.
    Hate to break the news to you, but heat sinks work in both directions. The heat from being in the sun was both radiated off and migrating toward the barrel when we started shooting the Mosin in the shade, so the saturation heat for the sink was coming from outside before it started dissipating internal heat. The fixed entity in the equation was the radiant surface area of the jacket, which was cooling. It doesn't matter either way.

    WT
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  7. #157
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    Hate to break the news to you, but heat sinks work in both directions. The heat from being in the sun was both radiated off and migrating toward the barrel when we started shooting the Mosin in the shade, so the saturation heat for the sink was coming from outside before it started dissipating internal heat.
    And the first two shots put more heat in the barrel then the entire shroud had. But Hey I'm sure you've spent more time shooting guns with thermocouples on them and watching temperture change/shot then I have recently, right?

    Actually you're just maiking the point of my second to last paragraph in the next post.

  8. #158
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    I've started to write this post several times now, and I keep getting interrupted. Hopefully this time will be better.

    I've posted all the facts on the system. All the data I collected is up, and you're free to make your own conclusions on it. With the exception of the heating graphs, it's all what I call "hard" data, meaning it's a direct measurement that I made. no inferences, no guesses. I only reported what I measured. On the heat graphs I only took measurements at shots 1,2,3,4,5,7,10,15,20,30 and 40. those are "hard" data points. (marked by dots on the last graph) the lines are either trend lines or two-period averages depending on the graph. That means mathematically estimated. But I'm confident in those estimates. That's a good picture as to what the barrel was doing for those shots. Feel free to look all that stuff over, All of it is in my photobucket account so feel free to copy it and post elsewhere if you want. I would ask that if you post my experiment elsewhere at least give me credit (dogmush on THR.us) or preferably link them back here so that THR.us gets the visitors.

    Ok so that covers the numbers. On to what I think/feel about the system.

    Does it live up to it's claims
    Lets first look at what it's supposed to do. I'm going to completely ignore wristtwister's various claims and go to TTI.
    They say the StraightJacket:
    Quote Originally Posted by www.teludynetech.com
    will significantly improve accuracy by removing the harmonic waves and rapidly dissipating heat. The results of this will be a drastically more consistent shooting rifle. The TTI StraightJacket is finished off with our patented Recoil Brake that is included with each installation
    I can't really speak to the harmonic waves except to say again that I don't think they're actually removed so much as reduced and limited. There's still got to be waves from that explosion going somewhere. However, it defiantly does improve accuracy and dissipate heat. Given that the effects are exactly what they claimed I'm inclined to give a little artistic license on reduced vs. removed.
    The SJ does everything a good bull barrel would do, with less weight and a cooler barrel, which I'd expect to lead to longer life. Good stuff.
    Does what they say. Check

    Customer service:
    I've said on here already, dealing with TTI was a great. They were up-front, told me what their product would do, answered all my questions, were responsive to all communications, and generally took care of me great. Over the course of this project I've probably spent an hour on the phone with the folks up there and they were always willing to stop what they were doing and talk until I was satisfied. It was, without a doubt, one of the best customer experiences I've had. I would recommend their business to friends without reservation.
    Good Customer Service. Check

    Should you buy one?

    As I said before this is the question isn't it? I don't actually claim to know everything about firearms, and I'm not quite arrogant enough to think I'm a gun-rag writer, but I will impose my opinions on you. I don't think the SJ is the be all and end all of shooting now. If, for example, You're an elk hunter and need a rifle that you will pack up and down mountains and shoot 20 times a year, sighting in included, honestly I don't think it'll do much for you. It will make the rifle more accurate, but where it really shines is multiple shots on target and that's kinda wasted in that scenario. And it adds weight to the rifle. If, however, you're into competition or any kind of tactical shooting (LEO sharpshooter comes directly to mind) that requires multiple, precision shots on target this would be a good addition to your rifle. Certainly for anyone considering installing a bull barrel on their existing rifle, I'd say look strongly at the SJ, as I think it does a bull barrel's job better then a bull barrel. I would also suggest strongly that one spend the extra $50 on the aluminum version. I'm not sure how much steel is in the shroud, but I think a lighter barrel end would really help the balance of my rifle out. Of course, I think a bull barrel is too front heavy too.
    That's my recommendation. If you're modifying a rifle for accuracy, and you don't mind the extra 2 or so lbs a thick barrel (bull or SJ) will add, then this product is right up your alley. It's a good buy.

    Post Script
    So I've got a review of a new product, that does everything the company says it does, at a good price, with top notch customer service. Why aren't I falling all over myself and writing a slobbering review? Well you'll note that when I reviewed it I made specific reference to TTI's claims for their product. But let's not kid ourselves, I wouldn't have even started this project if not for WT making crazy claims. He's claimed over the course of three or so threads ridiculous claims. I'm not going to bother to go over them all here, but I'm convinced WT is at least exaggerating some of the things this system does. I know he's a friend of the company, but AL, Mark, Paul, guys get him to shut up on the internet. Please. You've got a great product that does everything you promise it does, with great workmanship. I'll recommend you. But he's overshadowing your product with hyperbole, and it's hurting you. That's why this post is so wordy. I can't just say publicly: "The SJ is great, it lives up to it's promises, go buy one" Because someone will dig up his world record .338 claim and ask if I saw that. Even though I think it actually IS great. Have a "Come to Jesus" moment with the man. That's my advice, worth what you paid for it.

    P.P.S.
    This concludes my before and after test. It doesn't mean I'm done with this rifle however. I'm interested in what it can do when pushed, and will, over the course of the summer, keep playing with it. Any THR member that's in or near Tampa, and is interested, I'd be happy to let you shoot it, just bring some ammo, and give me some warning, because as a project I'll be taking it apart sometimes. I mentioned earlier that I got to stretch it to 100 yds this week, and I took my half reloads. With good projectiles and a consistent powder charge it shot much better. I'll attach those targets. It's not really a load workup yet, so I think there's more in the gun. It seems to like faster bullets so I'll squeeze another couple hundred FPS and use some good cases, as well as look at the trigger and see if I can make it a little better. Long term project ahead. It certainly shows potential. I'm also beginning to think I'll have to find something better than the $70 Wal-Mart scope that's on it. We'll see.



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    dogmush, thanks for the write-up and the clear, concise, data-rich conclusion.

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    Dogmush, time will tell whether or not I'm such a detriment to TTI's product or not. What I say about it doesn't affect it's performance one iota... just like all those detractors calling it "snake oil" and "pixie dust".

    What I've seen and talked about for the past few months has been an improvement to rifle shooting that is considered to be one of the best innovations in barrel technology in the past 350 years. Yes, I am animate about it... I've actually tried it and used it... on an almost daily basis since the company opened.

    While we might disagree on shooting matters, I think you'll have to admit that the stratijacket performs as advertised, the accuracy improved as advertised, and the recoil was reduced as advertised... so you make the point that you didn't believe "things I had said", and it motivated you to prove me wrong. How's that working for you so far?

    Most of the people on this board are seasoned conventional shooters. They are accustomed to shooting conventional barrels, and have a lot of knowledge of conventional shooting. One reason they have no experience shooting straitjacketed barrels is that they haven't been available... so their shooting paradigm is based on that conventional knowledge.

    Just like you're stuck on the idea that my Mosin's barrel isn't perfect, they are stuck on the idea that conventional barrels are... so it takes the kind of convincing you've started for yourself... shooting one with the straitjacket on it, to change the thinking. You still believe that flyers are "bad shots" and that you can't tell what the ammo is actually doing... but if you look at your own targets, and the simple improvement you made in ammo, you can see the kind of results you can expect. If I remember correctly, your first groups weren't quite that tight. Consistent loads will do wonders... then, you have the rifle barrel AND the ammo doing what it's supposed to... so the rest is up to technique.

    But let's not kid ourselves, I wouldn't have even started this project if not for WT making crazy claims. He's claimed over the course of three or so threads ridiculous claims. I'm not going to bother to go over them all here, but I'm convinced WT is at least exaggerating some of the things this system does.
    Send me the list... I'd be very interested in it.

    I know he's a friend of the company, but AL, Mark, Paul, guys get him to shut up on the internet.
    If it wasn't for me on the internet nobody would know about the straitjacketed barrels unless they happened on one at the shooting range... and as far as I can tell, I haven't said or done anything that wasn't complimentary of the product. You not believing me isn't one of my measurement parameters.

    Since I started talking about straitjackets, I've been called crazy, a liar, exaggerating everything I said, selling snake oil,... the list goes on and on... Most of the comments came from people who had no actual knowledge of the straitjacket, had never shot one, and didn't shoot them when they were offered... so maybe Mark, Al, and Paul might consider WHO is making the ugly comments here... it's certainly not me. At the very least, I'm speaking about something I know quite well... and everybody else is pulling their information out of their.... well, whatever...

    Just like the guys accusing me of being unethical, and TTI of being unethical for allowing me to shoot your rifle... they didn't know that you had given them permission to test the rifle any way they wanted... and I have always had the rifle owner's permission to shoot someone's rifle... but that didn't stop anybody from jumping to conclusions that were unsupported by facts... and I don't remember anybody either calling them on it or demanding an apology when you straightened it out.

    Just so you guys know, TTI has been a big hit at the NRA convention, and they are going to be swamped from here on out. All you naysayers have been outclassed by the industry professionals looking at TTI's offerings, and their response has been tremendous. You're right that I'm a friend of the company, and both Mark Hatfield and Al Adolphsen in particular. They are all my friends, however.

    WT
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    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

  11. #161
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    Dogmush, I got Q&D with Photoshop so you could get a good feel how your hybrid hand loads compared to your previous SJ tests.

    I used the results from your SJ test group 1 target, made them approx 70% transparent, marked your original hits with a 15px red dot, rescaled the target and overlaid it on you hybrid hand load target 1. (the separated lines at the bottom of the page are because the rescale wasn't perfect.)

    Alligned to grid axis:


    Alligned to group center:

  12. #162
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    ClickClick... just kidding of course, but does this mean we can print and rescale our groups for better scores?

    What I see from Dogmush's group is that he had 4 shots that didn't behave themselves and got out of his core group. The two lower ones could have been flyers from as little as a couple of grains of powder or a "grip pull" from excessive grip pressure on the stock. The two that graced each end of the group could have been something as minute as the width of the crosshairs on his aim point. Only he will know for sure, but it's a pretty typical target for a straitjacketed rifle.

    Discounting his flyers, it looks like his group size dropped about 40 to 50% with the handloads, and those could have been anything from load differences by a couple of pieces of powder, wind gust, or technique. It's not "one ragged hole", but pretty close.

    Now, I already know that the hue and cry will be that "every shot counts", but it's a good example of a core group with some "very close" flyers"... and when you're the shooter, only you know if you blew the shot or not. TTI's got a wall full of targets like that, and many that are even more impressive (no disrespect, Dogmush). Results vary from gun to gun, and from shooter to shooter, but target analysis is a different paradigm with the straitjackets if you're the one shooting. Just hitting the "bulls eye" changes to a group analysis type of target view, and seeing what the ammo is doing and what you're doing as a shooter can be picked apart from the groupings.

    WT
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    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

  13. #163
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    I know he's a friend of the company, but AL, Mark, Paul, guys get him to shut up on the internet.
    If it wasn't for me on the internet nobody would know about the straitjacketed barrels unless they happened on one at the shooting range... and as far as I can tell, I haven't said or done anything that wasn't complimentary of the product. You not believing me isn't one of my measurement parameters.
    WT, you seem to be missing the point. Dogmush isn't saying that you were less than complimentary towards the Straitjacket system. He's saying, and I agree with him, that many of the claims you make about the system seem too good to be true. I'm not saying that they're wrong or impossible. I don't have enough experience with guns to be able to make that call myself. On the other hand, a lot of people who do have lots of experience with guns are saying that your claims are unbelievable. We all understand that you are very enthusiastic about the Straitjacket, but when you make claims that seem too good to be true, without showing much of anything in the way of physical evidence, all it does is hurt your credibilty, and the product's credibility.

    Though you do have a point about raising awareness of the product in the first place, I'm not sure that it's the kind of awareness that the folks at TTI want.
    Last edited by Dewey 123; May 16th, 2010 at 10:31 AM. Reason: adressing another point.
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  14. #164
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    Guys, I would point out that those two groups were shot at different ranges. The first one was at 50 yds, and the handload group is at 100. The handloads are a honest 1-1.25 MOA. Also pay attention to the barrel temps on those targets.

    ETA:

    This is a more realistic 'shop of the diference between those groups. I used SJ Group 6 (hot barrel) and the first of the hot barrel handload groups. Group centers are the same, first group scaled to 100 yds.

    Last edited by dogmush; May 16th, 2010 at 01:38 PM.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogmush
    Guys, I would point out that those two groups were shot at different ranges. The first one was at 50 yds, and the handload group is at 100.
    My mistake.

  16. #166
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    Dewey,
    He's saying, and I agree with him, that many of the claims you make about the system seem too good to be true. I'm not saying that they're wrong or impossible.
    The difference here is that I'm speaking from first hand knowledge and experience shooting straitjacketed rifles, and everybody else is guessing or basing their expectations on conventional barrels. When the barrel is doing what it's supposed to be doing, and the ammo is consistent, you can take a straitjacketed barrel and shoot circles around conventional rifles... and that's also the opinion of many of the industry people who showed up to talk to TTI at the national NRA meetings. They were more interested in how to put the system into widespread production than with all the fleas arguing over which one owns the dog.

    If you go back and read what I've actually said and where all the vitriol came from, it's been all those people who want to be smartest guy in the room that have caused all the problems with my information. First of all, the company didn't exist; then, they didn't actually have an address; then, it was "they didn't have patents"; so it didn't matter what I said, there was some "expert" out there that knew more than the people dealing with things first hand. Later on, it's got into the "my expert can whip your expert" kind of idiocy, and it was all by people who had never even seen a straitjacketed rifle, much less shot one.

    I've probably dealt with 75 to 100 different people who actually have straitjacketed rifles, and don't seem to have any problems at all with reliability from them. Once they start shooting the rifles, they have a paradigm shift in how their shooting progresses, and most (if not all) of what I've said surfaces as true. I remember that one of the posters said something to the effect "yeah, we're supposed to believe you because 'some dood on the internet said so' "... but everybody just fell in line with their totally uninformed opinions and railed against me... who just happened to be the only one with any connection to actual information.

    Suddenly Dogmush appeared on the scene and actually bought one of the rifle barrel treatments, conducted some tests, and is heralded as the only true source of information about TTI... the funny thing is that if I hadn't recommended they do his rifle, I don't know that he would have ever had one... because his "plan" was to originally hack the thing apart to find out what's inside... but hopefully, the paperwork he signed for his work will be adhered to, and his agreement kept... because his "proposed experiments" were discussed in detail. I was the one that recommended that they do his gun when the discussion was held with me. When they talked to him on the telephone, he stated that he wasn't going to hack up $300 worth of work on his gun. Now that he's actually shooting it, I think he's finding out that's a very good decision... and from his last post, he and I shot a similar spread with his rifle. In my case, I'm sure it was an accident, since I don't know anything about rifle shooting...

    I just spent 9 years working for a cable company... the most hated business in our area. EVERYBODY in town absolutely hated them, and cursed them when they paid their bills, saw their trucks, or saw us wearing a company shirt... but they were lined up out the door to sign up for services. It wasn't that we had done anything wrong, it was just that the public's perception that everything about the company was terrible, and it was driven by a few disgruntled customers (who in this case, aren't even customers of TTI) that continuously railed against them.

    The major claims I made about the straitjacket system was that it reduced recoil, dissipated heat, and caused a substantial improvement in accuracy. If you read Dogmush's review, other than trying to hang me out to dry, it reinforces each one of those claims... complete with thermocouple readings.

    I won't go into how many people I've let shoot my guns at the range and left them baffled how I could pump 25, 30, or 40 rounds through my guns and toss them a cool shell casing right out of the breech. I've had several dozen benchrest shooters scratching their heads about how I could match some of their shooting with a $267 Mossberg ATR with a straitjacket on it. They spent more on their shooting stand than I did on my whole setup. (Sandbags are cheap).

    Straitjackets are designed to help people with conventional bolt guns (the old hunting rifle in the closet) shoot accurately using box ammo. It generally cuts groups about 50 to 60 percent on most guns. With handloads, it comes down even further. My Mosin dropped from 5" groups to 2.5" groups, and with more consistent ammo, from 2.25" to 1.5". We're setting up to do hand loads now, and I expect to see them go sub-MOA with those.

    TTI can also apply the straitjacket to AR-uppers now as well, and the guns they produce from those are phenomenal. They actually end up lighter and more accurate because of the hardware they remove to put on the straitjacket, and shoot super-accurate out to 600 yards. I'm not sure they've tested them further than that, but did test them at 600 yards out in Kansas.

    I don't know if you're aware of it, but I'm an 8th degree black belt in Jujutsu, and I once taught a seminar to my friends in one of the associations where I belonged. In that seminar, I told them that I could teach them one technique that would negate 90 percent of all their techniques. Of course, many of them had studied 10,20,& 30 years, and it was also blown off as B-S... until they showed up and took the seminar, and I showed them. The paradigm was simple: "Hit me if you can"... and I only used that one technique to defend myself from their attacks. At the end of the seminar, one of the 9th degree black belts came up to me and told me that he felt like he had just wasted the last 40 years of training...

    That same analogy applies to the straitjackets. Once you try them, and shoot using them... having a rifle where the barrel actually does what it's supposed to do... you'll be back in the learning mode. I know it's painful to think that all your conventional thinking is challenged, but I remember going to college and being told that I'd be failed if I was caught using a calculator. Now, I primarily work (when I'm employed) as a network administrator for cad systems, which didn't even exist back then. If I hadn't adapted, I'd have been out of work for the past 25 years.

    WT
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    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

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    Okay, a bit more playing with the images. (scaled properly this time)

    SJ Group six (blue), SJ hybrid handloads group 2 (green) and standard group 6 (red)




    I think it's pretty safe to say based on this overlay that the SJ system does in fact improve accuracy in a hot barrel rifle.

    However:

    SJ Group one (blue), SJ hybrid handloads group one (green) and standard group one (red)



    On a cold barrel rifle, the SJ system does not appear to provide an increase in accuracy.. unless hand loads are being used.

    (yes, I know the hand load portion of the overlay is a hot barrel, but Dogmush hasn't provided us with one yet and I think it's safe to assume that it will be tighter than the hot barrel group.)

    Based on the previous, I think it's safe to say that prairie dog hunters might have a new toy... any other type of hunter won't see any benefit from it. Tactical shooters probably also won't see any benefit from the system, unless they really, really need to rethink how they conduct operations. Competition shooters will see the benefits certainly.... and it would probably make an Appleseed shoot go a lot better... Then again, with all the .22s on the line these days maybe it won't.

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    dogmush,

    Thank you for all the work you have done. Looking at the other threads and the info from TTI I didn't see myself needed a Straightjacket. I still don't.

    I have never said anything bad about it. I did make a few suggestions for the test. I wish you lived closer. I would have loved to help you work up a load for the stock rifle.

    I saw you got a hold of some brass. If you need anything for further testing just ask. If I have it to spare it will be shipped your way.

    Wristtwister,

    You still don't get it.

    You posted a couple groups that might make Tubbs look like an amateur. You have been asked about these groups several times but have chosen to ignore it. That's called blowing smoke in this part of the country. And the AR video was just funny. I have no idea why people seem to keep questioning your other information.

    You keep comparing Straightjacketed shooting to conventional saying that no one can say anything because they haven't shot a Straightjacket. I hate to break it to you but you have shown in several threads that you lack experience in shooting a conventional rifle and knowledge about internal and external ballistics to make any comparison between the two. In case nobody told you in you what's a group thread. We don't shoot surplus FMJ for accuracy. I don't care what you do for harmonics the base doesn't leave the muzzle the same every time.

    And I hope you get the handloads done this year. I am so tired of hearing you blame the ammo for any problem you have.

    Sorry dogmush. I didn't want to clutter your thread but I just can't read his anymore. I held it in as long as I could and think I think I kept it Highroad.

    I hope my 40 plus year old Remmy never reads any of these Straightjack threads. It might decide to start shooting someplace besides where I call.

    jim
    Commom sense isn't very common anymore.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    I don't know that he would have ever had one... because his "plan" was to originally hack the thing apart to find out what's inside... but hopefully, the paperwork he signed for his work will be adhered to, and his agreement kept... because his "proposed experiments" were discussed in detail.
    In point of fact my original plan was:

    Quote Originally Posted by dogmush
    My plan is to use an indoor, climate controlled range, shooting at 50 Yds. I'll buy a bunch of surplus ammo in a spam can and use the same can for before and after.

    I'll start with heat testing. I'll shoot a couple shots in a set time frame, then measure the exterior and interior bore temps, as well as bolt face and muzzle temps. I'm thinking do this after 5 shots, then 10 shots, then 15 shots, all done pretty much rapid fire. I'll time the shooting strings. Then I'll slow down, and shoot 4, 5 shot groups at 50 yds for accuraccy. That's 55 shots total.

    Then I'll send the rifle off to Teludyne for the carbon steel Straight Jacket and muzzle brake, and when I get it back do the exact same test. Same ammo, same range, same shooter everything. Then I'll post everything up so folks can see.
    which I communicated clearly to TTI when I first talked to them, prior to this thread. And they had no problem with it.

    When asked about cutting it open I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by dogmush
    I don't want to destructivly test the system untill I know it doesn't work. After all if it works I have a tack driver of a rifle for not much cash. If it doesn't work (or is just mediocre) I'll consider drilling and cutting it open.
    Which when I mentioned as a possability to TTI they asked me not to, and I agreed. All of that was weeks before they sent me the revised agreement, which wasn't needed as I'm a man of my word, and I said I wouldn't.

    That entire subject was opened and closed in the course of two phonecalls, so they must have been pretty fast meetings.

    Calm down the patting of your own back.

    Unless you're making that up the same way you made up:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    I know for a fact that the company has 4 different patents involved in the design,
    (12 Feb 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    The other one, with the dime sized group was shot in Polk county, North Carolina using a Remington 700 .223 @ 300 yards using PMC Eagle Ammo and 55 gr. bullets
    (19 Feb 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    they had a group you could cover with half a dime that was shot at 400 yards. It was a .338 Lapua that a competitor had bought for his competition rifle. A 2nd target they had was a group they shot to test the rifle... it was 3 shots - 2 holes touching each other. One of the holes was slightly enlarged.
    (24 Feb 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    but I watched Al put 3 (count'em) Silver Bear 7.62 x 54's in the same hole at 100 yards about 3 weeks ago and then shoot about a 3/4" group around that hole
    (19 April 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    Al shot a 2" group at 100 yards with the scope literally falling off the gun
    (21 April 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    Dogmush... lucky for you, you can shoot 20 shot strings now with your 30-06. It shoots about 1 MOA now.
    (25 April 2010 not with any ammo you saw)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    burn about 10 rounds "rapid fire", open the action for about 10 seconds, and then stick your finger in the action. I did that with my Mosin the other day, and it was perfectly comfortable
    28 April 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Wristtwister
    The results vary, but I haven't seen a gun come through there yet that didn't show about a 50 percent drop in group size
    (14 May 2010)

    All of which are either unbelievable, or flat wrong. Which is kinda the point I was trying to make with:

    Quote Originally Posted by dogmush
    I know he's a friend of the company, but AL, Mark, Paul, guys get him to shut up on the internet. Please. You've got a great product that does everything you promise it does, with great workmanship. I'll recommend you. But he's overshadowing your product with hyperbole, and it's hurting you.
    But hey, it's a free country, so rock on.

  20. #170
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    Click, the first 5 shots from a cold barrel were 24% closer post StraightJacket. It really shines as it heats up, but even the first ones are more accurate. I'd use onefor tactical shooting because it's lighter then an equally accurate steel barrel. (and probably cheaper). If a LEO is going to have to run to the roof of a building, a couple pounds off a rifle with the same accuraccy is a good thing.

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogmush
    If a LEO is going to have to run to the roof of a building, a couple pounds off a rifle with the same accuraccy is a good thing.
    Scoffing at your girliness:

  22. #172
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    Hey, I'm in the Army, I did my time humping an M60. Everyone knows that cops are kinda girlie though. I was trying to give them an out.

    That's a parking garage. They probably drove up.


  23. #173
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    Dogmush, you need to call TTI and talk to Al himself. Please go item by item and ask him if I "made it up", and go down your list. I'll certainly publicly apologize if you find out I mislead you.

    The patent information has changed because they now have additional provisional patents. The rest of it is all accurate... even the 1MOA group with your rifle, unless 1.25 MOA isn't "close enough to 1MOA" for you to consider it "close to 1MOA. The customer with the .338 Lapua has that target, and is probably already on a hunting trip to Alaska until the end of this month.

    BTW, you guys are the ones patting yourselves on the back. All I did was post information and respond when you guys who had never shot one of the guns, or weren't there when events happened told me how it really was... so if anybody has been "making it up", it hasn't been me. If that's your list of things I've "made up", you're in deep trouble with your truth detector.

    If you remember correctly, you called TTI, and then it was several weeks until you actually delivered a gun to them, and I was aware of your calls when they came in. I actually tried to call you back, but didn't get you on the phone. They even had a "closed door session" with at least one of your phone calls.

    For the record... patent claim... correct
    dime-sized group information - correct
    .338 target group... the customer still has the target
    Silver bear shooting by Al... correct information
    Scope falling off the gun... ask Al... correct information
    20 shot string / gun shooting close to 1 MOA... you can argue 1.25
    Mosin - 10 rounds and stuck my finger in the action... correct information

    If they're lies, show me YOUR proof...

    WT
    "What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
    True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.

  24. #174
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    Great picture Click! OBVIOUSLY staged, but I love the Barret rifle. Anyone who has ever shot one of those would never be where that spotter is when a round is touched off. And no ear muffs...over good plugs. If that wasn't staged....my money is they will never do it again.

    I had a friend fire my AR-50 without plugs once. I wanted to see if the load experiment had a muzzle flash, so was down at the end of the bench row and didn't notice his lack of ears. He went over backwards with both hands over his ears....and rolled around screaming for a while. It was pitiful..and he lost most of his right ears function right then and there.

    Oh......great job Dogmush! Your Mexican Target handload worked pretty well, and should tighten up more as you bump the load up a bit. Thanks for your efforts...much appreciated!

  25. #175
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    To heck with the StraitJacket, I want to know about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by wristtwister
    one technique that would negate 90 percent of all their techniques.

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