Sorry Autospike... it's a rifle forum. You can email me at wristtwister@hotmail.com with your questions.To heck with the StraitJacket, I want to know about this:
WT
Sorry Autospike... it's a rifle forum. You can email me at wristtwister@hotmail.com with your questions.To heck with the StraitJacket, I want to know about this:
WT
"What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.
The handloads are a honest 1-1.25 MOA.You can take that one off the list...unless you were making it up...(21 April 2010)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wristtwister
Dogmush... lucky for you, you can shoot 20 shot strings now with your 30-06. It shoots about 1 MOA now.
WT
Last edited by wristtwister; May 16th, 2010 at 11:38 PM. Reason: afterthought
"What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.
Quote me compleatly please.You can take that one off the list...unless you were making it up...
So I stand by that statement. When you said it, that rifle hadn't shot an MOA group.Originally Posted by dogmush
(25 April 2010 not with any ammo you saw)
No. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I don't believe you. It's OK, you'll survive somdood on the 'net not believing you. And frankly, at this point, on some of those there's nothing you could say to make me believe it.
As far as everyone else, well you and I disagree on the StraightJacket, I've posted my thoughts and (I think anyways) backed up my thoughts with sound reasoning. In the area's where you and I disagree, everyone else will have to decide which of us they feel has more credibility.
That being said, I don't want to fall into the behavior I'm accusing you of. I like TTI, the guys there, and their product, and will probably order another someday. So I'm not going to engage in some long, protracted quote war. I've pretty much said my piece on the subject of your claims. I consider that subject closed.
If anyone wants to use this thread (or any other for that matter) to discuss the system, I'll tell them what I know. You can tell them whatever you want. They can decide what to take or leave. That's the beauty of forums.
Other then that, I'm tinkering with the trigger and will continue to off and on tinker with what has been, so far, a really fun project. I hope you guys liked reading about it. For the immediate future however I have a CETME stock to refinish.
My offer stands open, if folks want to come put hands on, or trigger time in on a SJ'd rifle hit me up. It a good piece of tech, and is fun to shoot.
Al, Mark and Paul, I genuinely wish you luck in your buisness. If you guys want to use any of the data I collected let me know, I'll get you what you need. It's a good system, and I enjoy shooting mine. Next time I'm TDY in SC, I fully intend to take you up on your tour offer, assuming it's still open.
'Til then, does anyone have any rifle related questions?
All this shows me is that you're too lazy to make a phone call and put all this to rest.
You're the one making all the accusations. I don't know what you think you're accomplishing by pretending to have knowledge you don't have, and attempting to deny things that happened when you weren't there, so man up and call Al. He can tell you first hand whether I'm exaggerating, lying, or not.
WT
"What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.
First off, I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, and if my language seems aggressive, then I apologize.All this shows me is that you're too lazy to make a phone call and put all this to rest.
You're the one making all the accusations. I don't know what you think you're accomplishing by pretending to have knowledge you don't have, and attempting to deny things that happened when you weren't there, so man up and call Al. He can tell you first hand whether I'm exaggerating, lying, or not.
I just want to point out that posting things like this are downright inflammatory isn't helping you any. I'm not trying to be a mod here or anything, but all you're doing with non-High Road (IMHO) comments like this are hurting your credibility. through this entire discussion, my impression of your claims and your comments has been that you aren't telling us everything, that you are "quote-mining", so to speak. On the other hand, Dogmush has been (at least in my opinion) straightforward and honest.
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Yes, I am a Pro-Gun Democrat, but with a strong streak of libertarianism.
Proud native of New Hampshire. Live free or Die!
click click.
And thanks for the writeup dogmush. I enjoyed reading it.
I thought Hot Rod forums were tough!
WW...I never accused you of being unethical...I said it would be unethical to shoot somebodies gun without their permission. Two different things.
Thank you DogMush for the excellent personal thoughts/experience/data. I appreciate it. I was following this thread for a shred of reality versus hysterical marketing and found it in your post.
I guess if I ever find myself in a situation I needed a bolt action putting significant rapid fired firepower downrange I would give a serious look at this barrel.....but then again I may just grab my Ishmash AK and go full auto for a bit
Thanks DogMush..............well done. All of it
Dogmush, sorry I'm late to the party. But I have something that absolutely MUST be said and taken to heart:
Do NOT refinish that rifle. I will destroy its collector value!
Thank you, and now back to my scotch.
I am old. I am retired. I am a combat veteran. I am grouchy. I am intolerant, and I am judgemental. I am also alive. Thank you. I am off to the range.
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the
lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC.
Honestly, with those sweet, really nice threads and a thick barrel already there? I really want to work up a subsonic .30-06 load and drop a Form 1 on a dedicated supressor for it. That would be sweeeeeet. and up the collectors value.
Hey! The supressor idea is a great one. You don't need a subsonic load for it to make one worthwhile. The standard twist rate of the '06 barrel might make it hard to get a useful subsonic round worked up. Too slow for a heavy bullet moving so slowly. They aren't bad with normal fast bullets and can, just have the 'crack' downrange.
You could probably do it with a roundnose bullet which would be significantly shorter than a boattail spitzer of the same weight. Stability is based on bullet length, not weight.
I have a few facts and a lot of opinions.
Yes, but with weight comes length, and without weight, a subsonic round has little useful power. Something like a 220grn lead RN would be where I would start in 30 caliber trying to get a slow bullet that would still hit with some authority. But, I don't know if the 1-10 (?) twist would stabilize such a bullet around 1000 fps.
Anything under 200grns is going to be kind of piddly going subsonic, don't you agree? Unless gophers and varmints are all that are to be shot.
Um.......Given the nature of this project and the kind of folks that have to be tracking this kind of forum, let's assume that short of a Zombie Apocolypse, paper will be the only thing getting shot with the planned supressed rifle.
In that vein however, I imagine a 220gr roundnose going right around 1000fps would give me something similar to .45ACP performance at an extended range, quietly. Basiclly recreate a .300 Whisper's ballistics, with the ability to use full-house .30-06 loads when needed. Some careful work with the powder would be needed to deal with the extra case capacity. Woodleigh has a 240gr that is designed for a .30-06, but I'm not sure it would stabilize slow enough.
I wish you luck with your powder research in sub sonic. I tried to load a 30-.30 TC barrel to sub sonic using Blue Dot. Before you get too far into it, I would suggest that you go to a welding supply place and get a 36" piece of 1/4" bare brazing rod to tap the underpowered trial bullets back out of the bore.
I would think that 12 gr. of Reloder 7, topped with corn meal up to the neck and then slightly compressed by bullet seating would be just about it. I could be wrong though, because that corn meal would act like more bullet weight. Where would you start?
With a lot of reading.Where would you start?
Again, of the top of my head, I'd start with known subsonic .30cal loads and cornmeal to make up the case volume difference.
You'd want a nice bulky powder. From other forums I'd say somthing like 14gr of H335 or 12 gr of AA 2015 would be a starting point. It would take more knowledge of powder volume and burn rates then I have on the top of my head to get specific. If I do build a supressor, I'll have to carefully work something up.
I don't know, either. Which leaves us with rank empiricism - load the gun and pull the trigger - or tracking down a real bullet stability computation... not Greenhill.But, I don't know if the 1-10 (?) twist would stabilize such a bullet around 1000 fps.
I would be reluctant to put a compressible granular filler like corn meal in a bottleneck cartridge. Maybe you could get to where you want to be with Trail Boss which is bulky and fast burning.
I have a few facts and a lot of opinions.
I currently shoot 2 sub-sonic 30 caliber rifles. The 300 Whisper has low case capacity so it is easy however the 308 in my Ruger 77 was tougher. I now use Lapua brass made for 308 subsonic loads. The case capacity of 30-36 can be a problem. Red Dot is a good bulky powder to start with. I found these rules for sub sonic online years ago...
Rules for the safe operation of subsonic loads:
1. Drill Flashole to 3.5mm (9/64") to allow all the primer flash to enter the case and ignite the powder completely.
2. Use Magnum Primers for maximum primer flash and better powder ignition.
3. Lube all bullets. Moly is good, animal fat is better.
4. Lubricate the bore regularily while shooting.
5. Never crimp bullets into cases. Never seat bullets "into the lands."
6. Try not to use powder charges of less than 40% load density.
7. If load density is less than 40%, use tamping or fillers to keep the powder at the bottom of the case.
8. Make sure the bullet exits the bore after each shot.
9. Use only the fastest burning pistol powders - N310, N312, Bullseye, Clays, Titewad, HP38, Red Dot.
10. Any sort of slow ignition or hangfire is a warning of iminent Secondary Explosive Effect (SEE).
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. - The Declaration of Independance
I found discussion of stability at:
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/SubsonicBullet.html
Says a 220 gr Hornady RN is stable enough for 10" twist at 1000 fps.
Also most any 180 gr RN.
I have a few facts and a lot of opinions.
Dogmush,
Great plan, great execution, great analysis! Thanks so much for the time, money and effort you put into it.
Dogmush,
I hereby present you with the Bennett C. Prescott "Gentleman Scholar" award. Talk about going the extra mile and really putting your ass on the line in a public place. To then do it and stay cool headed while WristTwister does everything he can to destroy any interest I would have had in the product, humbles me. I was getting annoyed just paging past his posts and reading quotes.
You have done a great service to the shooting community, this forum, and TTI.
"[The 2nd Amendment's] free exercise is the antithesis of serfdom and the only meaningful form of holocaust insurance known to man." -- Gus Cotey, Jr.
NRA, SAF, and JPFO Life Member. USCCA annual member.
Public Relations Coordinator, Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Inc.
^ agreed. I don't think I've ever seen such a display of unbiased, scientific testing here on the THR. way to go Dogmush! While I don't think I'll be running out and getting my rifle Straight Jacketerized any time soon, I am impressed that their product does what they say it does. Of course it isn't anywhere what WT has claimed, eliminates recoil, eliminates, heat, eliminated harmonics etc, but it does seem to improve all of the above.
on the other hand, I also have never seen such a display of someone so absolutely destroying confidence in a company and/or product like WT did. I know you're intentions are good WT, but damn man, trust me when I say you will do this company a far bigger favor by keeping your yap shut. You're the main reason I'm not even willing to consider it. If you really want to help TDI sell it's product, give them the gift of your silence.
Bobby
They're, Their, and There. It's NOT that hard.
Back on THR after a month off.
Great test write-up to Dogmush, the finished rifle looks good too.
Why I will never buy a SJ.
1. The claims, the claims! Seriously, the pitchman really turned me off.
2. Not legal for highpower.
3. Too heavy for 3 gun.
4. For precision rifles I start with new match barrels and not plan to use them to provide sustained covering fire.
Looks fun for a bench gun though.
No, holding that venegence upon their enemies was more to be desired than any personal blessings, and reckoning this to be the most glorious of hazards, they joyfully determined to accept the risk... Thus, choosing to die resisting, rather than to live submitting, they fled only from dishonor... Pericles' Funeral Oration
post deleted
Last edited by wristtwister; May 27th, 2010 at 02:07 PM.
"What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.
Been off the board for a couple of weeks and it looks like I missed some good discussion and test results.
Dogmush, thanks for all your hard work on this project. It has been enlightening.
Wristtwister, you are not seeing the forest for the trees. But, to your credit, everyone has a blind spot; I know I have several. Unfortunately, time has already told. Several of us on this board are already cynical, to the detriment of Teludyne.If you go back and read what I've actually said and where all the vitriol came from, it's been all those people who want to be smartest guy in the room that have caused all the problems with my information.
When you make substantial claims, they need to be backed up with more than hearsay evidence, which is to say, real evidence. That means verifiable, repeatable results. To the best of my knowledge, the claims that dogmush enumerated in post #169 have been neither independently verified nor independently repeated. As to calling Teludyne to verify, well, that doesn't sound like a logical way to go about it. If I called the office of the guy that tried to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge, I am sure that they would "verify" that it was indeed for sale.
Obviously, you were sold. Great. Most of us don't have the proximity or the access that you do. Therefore, we must wait upon known sources to examine, verify, and repeat the claims that you have made. For me, there are certain litmus tests, especially for rifle accuracy. Examples are a major benchrest competitor winning matches, a full review by Layne Simpson, or David Tubb selling them with his actions.
So far, I have seen nothing that makes me want to run out and have one of these installed. That may change over time. We'll see.
"There is no lie too grotesque, too stupid, or too base for leftist extremists to retell." -- Standing Wolf
Posted from my Ubuntu machine.
Thanks Sheik... at least there is somebody reasonable reading the board.
You seem to think I have a 'blind spot" toward the straitjacket, which is fine. I do think they do what they're advertised to do, and as a new company, their record can only get larger.
Where most of the acrimony comes is from people who jump in and say that I am making outrageous claims. No one bothers to look at their arguments, or analyze the numbers they put out, but somehow I turn out to be the devil and everyone else is pure as the driven snow... take the ".003 inch group", for instance... That's simply a bad math mistake... not my "outrageous claim".
"Half a dime" is not .003"... using a cen-tech digtital caliper, a dime measures .7 inches. Half of that is not .003... it's a mere 100 times different from that... .35 inches, or .33428 MOA.
Dogmush posted a target picture that somewhere in his write up stated "I can get sub.75MOA out of an AR on a Versi-pod" which no one ever challenged. Then, in his subsequent material, it said "Note the .6 MOA or so." Was it .75 or .6?
So, someone shooting a group half his group is totally wild and outrageous? I rather doubt it. The guy shooting the .338 Lapua has gone from about 14th in his gun club to 5th place since getting his rifle straitjacketed for long range... but the important part is that I never claimed a .003 group... I said "half a dime"... which is 100 times different from somebody's bad math skills.
Most of the other "outrageous claims" I've made, have been incidents where I've been there to see something actually happen... but of course, they are also refuted by people who weren't there, and have no possible way of knowing if I'm making up a story. "The scope falling off in Al's hand" comes to mind... Dogmush should like this, because it was done when we were testing his gun. After shooting a gun, he handed the gun to me, and the scope literally fell off in his hand after shooting about a 2" group with it. We had to stop testing at that point, because we had run out of ammo in that caliber. The scope was attached by "quick disconnect" rings, and evidently they shot loose as he was shooting, but it actually happened... and no matter what any of the "wizards" of the internet say, I saw it with my own poor vision.
Everyone is quick to confer sainthood on Dogmush for his experiment to "prove or disprove these outrageous claims"... and all he really did was to prove what I had told you for the past six months. But I can stick my finger in the action of my gun and know if it's hot or not... I don't need a thermocouple to tell me if it's over 120 degrees. To quote Bob Dylan... "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"...
Semantics are a funny thing. If I say "the effects of harmonics are dampened and pose no significant problem for the shooter"... it comes off differently from "eliminates the harmonics"... when you read the TTI website. They're both talking about the effect of the harmonics on the shooter, not the "scientific elimination of harmonic vibration". TTI's composite bull barrel simply turns the whole rifle into a monolithic structure that remains stable. Once the barrel is doing what it's supposed to be doing, it's easy to start working on the two real problems with shooting... ammo and technique.
Sheik, you've been a reasonable guy, even when we've disagreed on issues on the boards, and I do appreciate your view. If I have a blind spot, I'll try to work on it. I don't have a stingy bone in my body, and I'm willing to let anybody shoot my rifles, and do on a constant basis. If you want to shoot straitjacketed rifles, I'll try to arrange it for you... by finding people in the area who have them, and by sometimes putting them in my car and driving them to your area to use them.
My buddies at TTI have thrown their life savings and time at making a go of this company in the worst economy in my lifetime. I have absolutely no financial interest in the company, or own anything other than a couple of straitjacketed rifles that I make available to help them "make a go" of it. They are my friends, and while everyone that reads what I say seems to think I"m a demon, they are working 14 hour days to make things work... and understand that the criticisms are unjustified. Many of the things attributed to me, were actually said by other people.
Armchair commandos are a dime a dozen, and you can find them everywhere. It's the people with "skin in the game" that are important.
Thanks for keeping things reasonable.
WT
"What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?"... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
True patriots feel that there is no problem in our Republic that cannot be solved by election, windage and elevation, or superior firepower.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
