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Thread: Crimp die required for .45 ACP, .223 Cannelure?

  1. #1
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    Crimp die required for .45 ACP, .223 Cannelure?

    OK, I can't find a definitive answer on this. Do I need a factory crimp die for a ..45 ACP? Also, I got some surplus rounds with a cannelure the other day, Do I need to crimp those when I load them? I am still new and learning so please take it easy on me.
    Piss on .org,, the mod nazis still reign supreme.

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    Bud,
    Some will say no, others, yes.
    Take a look at a factory round with a caliper.
    They taper crimp the round.
    I use a factory crimp die as the last stage on mine, applying just enough to take all the flare from the bullet seating bell out of the case. If you find the bullets crawling out of the case in the magazine, apply a bit more taper crimp. Don't apply too much, as it shortens the case life and could cause the round to not headspace on the mouth on the barrel. The bullet seating die has the capability to do the crimp, I find it a lot easier to use the FCD as I load many different projectiles and that way I do not need to adjust the crimp on the bullet seating die. Others here with many years experience will chime in, this is just the way I do it. You will find the method that works best for you.
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
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    'Need' a factory crimp die? Absolutely not. Is it nice to have and use? Yes. Many bazillions of 45 ACP have been loaded with roll crimp dies that are part of your seating set. As Grizz stated, they are used to just remove the flare, and not actually crimp the mouth. The Lee FC die gives an added touch of confidence that the rounds will chamber and be more consistant, but you can very well do without it.

    The .223 rounds will be more reliable in an autoloader if crimped in the cannelure, but many have been fired without it. Depends on the rifle and magazines. Most AR's will work just fine without crimped bullets and are more accurate (normally) if you don't crimp. Military and factory ammo will almost always be crimped just for the additional security of function it offers. Shooting targets or varmints that can't shoot back, shouldn't make much of a difference.

  4. #4
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    The crimp on an auto pistol case only removes the bell you put before bullet seating. It does not hold the bullet, the case tension does and is set by the sizing die, not the crimp.

    If you properly size your brass, you won't have the desire for the FCD. The FCD is a crutch for handloaders to make poor quality ammunition, then try to forcefully fix it with a single die regarded as a talisman by its manufacturer whom markets it for sole profit motivation like any business. If you think you need it, you just fell for the biggest marketing trap in the handloading industry. I load tens of thousands of pistol rounds each year and not one of my customers has reported a failure to chamber. I do not use a FCD, I use Redding Pro Series dies exclusively, the crimp die only removes the bell and does not post size like the FCD does.

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    Many of us use range pickup brass for our 45acp - the brass may vary in thickness and may bulge some cases on reloading - if you have a tight chamber some rounds may be less reliable in chambering unless you use the FCD since it not only removes flare but also functions as a final size die.

    I do crimp auto rifle rounds with a cannelure and do not rounds with no cannelure. I do not crimp match rounds - they have no cannelure.

    Listen to the arguments and find your own path.

  6. #6
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    The .45 and all cases that headspace on the mouth use a taper crimp. Aids feeding.
    You can ignore the cannelure on the .223 bullets and seat where you want.

  7. #7
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    You can ignore the cannelure on the .223 bullets and seat where you want.
    I can't remember where I read it, but some bullets are designed with a cannelure that is not designed to be a crimp groove, but to control expansion instead.
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
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    I only use the FCD on my .357/38 rounds as the final pass to ensure proper feeding in tight cylinders. As far as .45 acp goes, I never had an issue with using the seating die only. Plated/Jacketed bullets can be a little tricky to get the tension right unless you trim all your brass the same length, but with lead (being .001" wider) the right tension is always there.

  9. #9
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    45acp- Lead bullets,taper crimp .002" smaller on the mouth, compared to the body of the brass right behind the mouth. No trimming needed. 223-military spec. of 35 to 45lbs bullet pull is needed to retain/keep from moving the bullet in the case on loading. Normal dies will do this, with no crimp. If you do crimp into a cannelure with a roll crimp, the trim length of all brass must be the same or a bulge in the neck or shoulder of the round may jam the action on loading if over crimped. Crimping of 223 brass is best done with the Lee Factory Crimp die,as case trim length is not as important, if you must crimp.
    Last edited by 243winxb; May 13th, 2010 at 09:52 AM. Reason: added Lead bullets

  10. #10
    If you fair the cases on .45acp, you need to remove that, preferably with a taper crimp.
    Most auto pistol die sets come with taper crimps, not roll crimps. You can use the taper crimper in your seating die to remove the flair. Use a minimum amount of flair because too much will degrade the tension on the bullet.

    Most factory .45acp ammo is not crimped. Of all the factory auto pistol ammo I have, only certain Winchester .38 Super factory rounds are crimped.

  11. #11
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    You only need a small flare to get a straight walled pistol bullet to sit up right, and start straight into the case without shaving the bullet. The crimp is used to take the flare back out, and no more. A .45acp should measure .470" to .473" at the case mouth with the bullet set.

    If you over crimp them it will loosen the bullet in the case and you will have bullet set back.
    Best Regards,Baldy.

  12. #12
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    What there is left from my memory brain cells from years ago seem to recall an addditional, back-up step.

    For me, my tools, and pistols/revolvers, reducing the diameter of the expander ball a couple of thousandths made for a tight grip on the bullet.

    Tight grip was needed for cases loaded with a hat full of 2400 or H110 and Mag primers.

    Roll crimp was used also, just that case tension wasn't singularly dependent of fold of the roll. Case length and cannalure, if there, varied. As did slop in the loading tool.

    Case length didn't have to exact from round to round

    Tight grip on ACP brass is needed also. Maybe, if you can glue the bullet in place, it may not be needed. Too tight a taper crimp can cause a 'spring back' leaving a looser bullet fit in the case. More crimp is definetly not better. ACP headspaces on the case rim.If you pick up range brass, I did and was a lead scaenger from the backstop as well. Lots of variables involved and its fun/frustrating to try to work them out.

    My solution, courtesy of a guy named Dean Grinnel, was a tad less, not more roll/taper crimp. Do the roll/taper crimp for sure, just back it up with a tighter grip on the bullet behind the crimp.

    Maybe that might help,

    salty


    EDIT:

    I forgot something. If you're using real soft bullets and the nose punch does not fit the nose profile on your bullet lube/re-sizing die or your seating die, your bullet nose may expand a bit to the contour of the nose punch.

    You're going to get a tighter fit, even before the crimp is added.

    Don't know what that'd do for pressure though.

    It worked for my stuff.

    sd.
    Last edited by saltydog452; May 12th, 2010 at 03:47 PM.

  13. #13

    Crimp die required for .45 ACP, .223 Cannelure

    Back in the mid 70's I needed a Taper Crimp die dor my 1911.
    The store did not have one so he sold me a steel sizing die, without the decaping system. After re-adjusting the die it works excellent on 45ACPs.

    I also, taper crimp my .223 Remmington rounds.

  14. #14
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    "...sold me a steel sizing die..." All dies are steel.

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