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Thread: Gun Walker..... Ahhh! It gets better!

  1. #776
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    Part of the question is, what do Issa/Grassley really think they'll find?

    If it's criminal -- obstruction of justice, perjury, etc., they definitely should stay the course.

    If it's political -- demonstration of incompetence and duplicity -- well, sooner rather than later they will recognize they've already proved their point.
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

  2. #777
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    Is Issa approaching the ‘No-More-Mr. Nice-Guy’ point in Fast & Furious?

    Congressman Darrell Issa yesterday sent a seven-page letter to Attorney General Eric Holder about His and the Justice Department’s uncooperative posture in the investigation of Operation Fast and Furious, and there were no Valentines attached.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...t-fast-furious

  3. #778
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    Issa has been putting pressure on Holder to spell out Justice and ATF's position. With DEA, ICE and the FBI also involved, the more that Issa can get Holder to testify to, the more chance there is that the other agencies will have contradictory material.

  4. #779
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    Follow-Up: Issa tells Fox News ‘American people have right to know’

    In a blistering interview Wednesday with Fox News’ Megyn Kelly, Congressman Darrell Issa made it clear that his investigation of Operation Fast and Furious is being stonewalled and he’s tired of it.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...-right-to-know

  5. #780
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    Representative Issa handled himself well, I'm glad he's not a bonehead like some members of Congress

  6. #781
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    The California Republican asserted that Holder is “quite detached” from the day-to-day management of the Justice Department.
    “He has a hands-off way of doing business. It’s disappointing because he should have known.”—Darrell Issa
    I wonder how much of that "hands-off way of doing business" is simply a front for plausible denyability?

    Zip
    Last edited by Zipperhead; February 16th, 2012 at 06:16 PM.
    "Few of the great tragedies of history were created by the village idiot, and many by the village genius." Thomas Sowell
    "Sometimes absurdity is worth it for its own sake." Andrew Breitbart
    "Reality is not optional." Thomas Sowell

  7. #782
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    Simply put, it goes way beyond the scope of the current discussion.

    Remember the line in the movie "National Treasure" when they

    were being tracked down by the FBI, and the guy said;

    "Oh, LOOK! THERE's my tax dollars hard at work, coming to

    arrest me!"??

    The point is we paid for the BATFE to do this.

    We are also now paying for the DOJ, Hillary, and Holder to

    arrogantly treat us as though

    we are three-year-olds.

    If we continue to allow the powers that be to treat us like sheep,

    we're going to get what we deserve. We're going to eventually

    evolve into quadrapeds with eyes on the sides of our heads...

  8. #783
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    http://houston.cbslocal.com/2012/02/...ong-us-border/
    "Mexico Unveils ‘No More Weapons!’ Sign Made Of Firearms Along US Border", Associated Press, 17 Feb 2012.

    [rant]
    This kinda stupidity just irks me to no end

    Near a bridge between El Paso, TX and Cuidad Juarez, Mexico, Mexican Presidente Felipe Calderon unveiled a big "No More Weapons" sign made of crushed guns aimed at the U.S.

    Calderon's speech: "Dear friends of the United States, Mexico needs your help to stop this terrible violence that we’re suffering. ... The best way to do this is to stop the flow of automatic weapons into Mexico, ..."

    Since Calderon launched the current Mexican Drug War in Dec 2006, the death rate has accelerated:
    2006 - 62
    2007 - 2,837
    2008 - 6,844
    2009 - 9,635
    2010 - 15,273
    2011 - 16,466
    Total estimate of deaths Jan 2006-Dec 2011: 47,554. ~90% of the deaths are cartel members, ~7% are military or police, and 3-4% are innocent civilians.

    This acceleration is in spite of increased focus on gun trafficking to Mexico over 2006-2012 via Project Gunrunner and should be a stark reminder that attacking a means does not remove the motive for crime.

    In studying motives and relationships in 588 ordinary homicides, criminologist Marvin Wolfgang (who personally hated guns) recognised: "More than the availability of a shooting weapon is involved in homicide." The murderer and the motivation is more important than the means, and this probably more true in organized crime.

    I would propose two signs: one facing Cuidad Juarez: "No More Drugs" and one facing El Paso: "No More Drug Dollars". That would recognise the motivation for the drug cartels being willing to fight each other and the government for their slice of the drug market. And just like the "No More Weapons" sign those signs would be purely symbolic.

    The death rate in Mexico is not the result of legal gun ownership in the U.S.:

    El Paso, TX, pop 624,322, year 2010 homicides 5, homicide rate 0.8 per 100,000 population per year.

    Ciudad Juarez, Mexicon, pop 1,321,004, year 2010 homicides 3,075, homicide rate 229 per 100,000 population per year.

    If guns caused crime, there would be more deaths per 100,000 per year in El Paso than in Cuidad Juarez, whose Mexican gun laws are praised by U.S. gun control advocates.

    The accelerating death rate in Mexico is the result of Calderon destablizing the balance of power between the rival drug cartels, throwing a bad situation into chaos, kinda like the paradigm of getting involved in a ground war in Asia. The death rate is motivated and paid for by U.S. dollars flowing south for Mexican drugs flowing north. If LBJ had installed a "No More Weapons" sign in Vietnamese at the DMZ while escalating the Vietnam War, I suspect history would adjudge him insane.

    So we should add an American Gun War to the Mexican Drug War and all will be made better?

    I think starting in the 1960s we did have an undeclared War on Guns that escalated to the insanity of Ruby Ridge and Waco, and since then it has backed off because it has proven to be, like Prohibition of Alcohol, counter-productive and more people are recognizing that.

    I suspect that the revival of the discredited "gunwalking" strategy under Operation Fast & Furious is a deliberate attempt to escalate the situation in Mexico to justify a revival of the War on Guns, which we should recognize as a war on gunowners.
    [/rant]
    Cogito me cogitare; ergo, cogito me esse.

  9. #784
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    And the hits keep coming...

    CBS has new revelation in Zapata slaying, and Sen. Grassley is not happy

    CBS News’ Sharyl Attkisson is reporting that a Texas man has been convicted for trafficking a firearm connected to the murder of Jaime Zapata, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent killed more than a year ago in a Mexican ambush.
    This came as a surprise to Sen. Charles Grassley…


    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...y-is-not-happy

  10. #785
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    I think he should be about snot-stomping mad by now... it's not like he didn't ask nice first.
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

  11. #786
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    From Sharyl Attkisson's Zapata story:

    Zapata's actual murder "is being handled by another US Attorney's office and... is separate and apart from the firearms case that was handled by our district," said a spokeswoman. She added the firearms offenses "are crimes that do not involve victims in the legal sense of the word and therefore, notifications are not part of the legal process."
    Aren't you glad to know that the government thinks firearms offenses do not involve victims.

  12. #787
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    Good rant Carl. The stats comparing El Paso and Juarez are very illustrative.
    Best regards,
    Rainbowbob

  13. #788
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    The gun walking involved in the shooting of US agent Jaime Zapata appears to be a seperate gunwalking operation outside the Phoenix Operation Fast and Furious.

    The Phoenix operation involved traffickers connected to the Sinaloa Cartel, while the Texas operation involved traffickers connected to the Los Zetas.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

    There have been questions raised over a possible connection between Fast and Furious and the death of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent Jaime Zapata on February 15, 2011. The gun used to kill Jaime Zapata was purchased by Otilio Osorio in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, Texas (outside the area of responsibility for the ATF Phoenix field division which conducted Fast and Furious), and then smuggled into Mexico. Congressional investigators have stated that Osorio was known by the ATF to be a straw purchaser months before he purchased the gun used to kill Zapata, leading them to question ATF surveillance tactics.

    In addition to Otilio Osorio, a Texas-based drug and gun trafficker, Manuel Barba, was involved in trafficking another of the guns recovered in the Zapata shooting. The timeline of this case, called "Baytown Crew", shows guns were allowed to walk during surveillance that began 7 Jun 2010. On 20 Aug 2010 Barba received a rifle later recovered in the Zapata ambush and sent it with nine others to Mexico. The warrant for Barba's arrest was issued 14 Feb 2011, the day before Zapata was shot. On 30 Jan 2012, Barba, who claimed to be working with [[Los Zetas]] in illegally exporting at least 44 weapons purchased through straw buyers, was sentenced to 100 months in prison.

    references

    Serrano, Richard, "Family of U.S. agent slain in Mexico demands to know gun source", Los Angeles Times, 17 Jul 2011.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul...artel-20110718

    Carroll, Susan, "Slain ICE agent's family still searching for answers", The Houston Chronicle, accessed 15 November 2011
    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...or-2230738.php

    Perez-Trevino, Emma, "Straw purchaser of guns pleads guilty in Dallas; defendant linked to Zapata death", The Brownsville Herald, accessed November 2011.
    http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/new...ial-jaime.html

    "Phoenix Field Division", ATF, accessed 15 November 2011
    http://www.atf.gov/field/phoenix/

    Titus, Elizabeth, "Cornyn Presses Holder on Alleged Texas Operation", The Texas Tribune, accessed 15 November 2011
    http://www.texastribune.org/texas-re...older-hearing/

    Timeline of "Baytown Crew" case.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/baytown.pdf

    Sharyl Attkisson, "Second gun used in ICE agent murder linked to ATF undercover operation", CBS News, 22 Feb 2012.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...ver-operation/
    Cogito me cogitare; ergo, cogito me esse.

  14. #789
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    So to summarize:
    ATF forces gun shops to sell to gunrunners despite shop owners' concerns. Tells them they'll track them.

    Approx. 2000 guns allowed to walk with no tracking whatsoever.

    1 BP agent, 1 ICE agent, hundreds if not thousands of Mexicans murdered.

    No one is fired/held accountable. Those involved are laterally promoted.

    Whistleblowers subjected to retaliation.

    Emails show that ATF attempted to use gun smuggling issue to enforce new gun reporting rules.

    Congressional investigation is stonewalled and receives only about 8% of the documents they ask for, most are heavily redacted.

    Documents show AG Holder and others lied about details of F&F

    No outrage in media.

    That about it?
    "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."

  15. #790
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    ^ unfortunately that's Gunwalker
    Cogito me cogitare; ergo, cogito me esse.

  16. #791
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    No one is fired/held accountable. Those involved are laterally promoted.

    Whistleblowers subjected to retaliation.

    Emails show that ATF attempted to use gun smuggling issue to enforce new gun reporting rules.
    Welcome to the wonderful morality of law enforcement.

  17. #792
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    Issa, Grassley push Holder for answers in Zapata slaying

    Congressman Darrell Issa and Senator Charles Grassley today sent a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder demanding answers regarding the slaying of Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent Jaime Zapata more than a year ago.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...zapata-slaying

  18. #793
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    Gun owners are growing impatient with Congress on this issue. It is past the time, many believe, that Capitol Hill should be seriously looking at either reforming or abolishing the agency.
    This needs to be stated often and with extreme volume whenever possible.

    Zip
    "Few of the great tragedies of history were created by the village idiot, and many by the village genius." Thomas Sowell
    "Sometimes absurdity is worth it for its own sake." Andrew Breitbart
    "Reality is not optional." Thomas Sowell

  19. #794
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    Soo, what can we, as responsible gun owners,

    just run-of-the-mill, law abiding, conscientious

    citizen types do to keep the DOJ from sending

    more "assault weapons" to Mexico?

    We can't even get BATFE(who should

    know, even if they don't) to provide a proper

    accounting for what they've sent so far...

  20. #795
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    Soo, what can we, as responsible gun owners,

    just run-of-the-mill, law abiding, conscientious

    citizen types do to keep the DOJ from sending

    more "assault weapons" to Mexico?
    Vote early and vote often.....

    Zip
    "Few of the great tragedies of history were created by the village idiot, and many by the village genius." Thomas Sowell
    "Sometimes absurdity is worth it for its own sake." Andrew Breitbart
    "Reality is not optional." Thomas Sowell

  21. #796
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    I wonder how much of that "hands-off way of doing business" is simply a front for plausible denyability?

    Zip
    I would call it dereliction of duty. I consider that an impeachable offense.

    Woody

  22. #797
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    I would call it dereliction of duty.
    Me too. However, I cannot recall any appointee or elected official being so charged. Seems they always protect each other, even when they are on opposite sides of an issue. Think Charlie Rangel and his tax evasion issues.....

    Zip
    "Few of the great tragedies of history were created by the village idiot, and many by the village genius." Thomas Sowell
    "Sometimes absurdity is worth it for its own sake." Andrew Breitbart
    "Reality is not optional." Thomas Sowell

  23. #798
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    What should be done...
    Gun owners are growing impatient with Congress on this issue. It is past the time, many believe, that Capitol Hill should be seriously looking at either reforming or abolishing BATFE.
    What is being done by Dear Leader...
    Gun owners are growing impatient with Congress on this issue. Capitol Hill is seriously looking at either reforming or abolishing Congress.
    If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?

    http://czforumsite.info/

  24. #799
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    Something I read recently about the taint of legality.http://quotes.yourdictionary.com/legality

    Wonder if that is running through their minds in trying to "Great Things"?
    Oh, Mr President, do not let so great an achievement suffer from any taint of legality.

    - Philander Chase Knox
    Quoted in TomBuckley Violent Neighbours (1983), alluding to Theodore Roosevelt's desire to find legal grounds for the seizure of the Panama Canal by the US.
    But this bunch lacks that quality of greatness. Bit like giving me a match grade .45 at the range. I can shoot it is about all.

  25. #800
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    From George Washington's – Farewell Address, September 19, 1796:
    The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established government.
    Powerful words. Words which today appear to be unknown, unheard and unheeded.

    Zip
    Last edited by Zipperhead; February 28th, 2012 at 10:38 PM.
    "Few of the great tragedies of history were created by the village idiot, and many by the village genius." Thomas Sowell
    "Sometimes absurdity is worth it for its own sake." Andrew Breitbart
    "Reality is not optional." Thomas Sowell

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