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Thread: Korean Garands are back?

  1. #1
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    Korean Garands are back?

    January 22, 2012: After over two years of negotiations, South Korea has finally received permission to export antique (over 50 years old) American military rifles back to the United States. South Korea has been given permission to sell 87,310 M1 Garand rifles to American collectors. The U.S. still refuses to allow South Korea to export 770,160 M1 Carbines to collectors in the United States. That's because the M1s can only hold eight .30 caliber (7.62mm) bullets while the carbines use a magazine (holding up to 30 rounds). The M1 Carbine can also be easily modified to fire automatically. While not outlawed in the United States, M1 Carbine imports are usually banned.

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htp.../20120122.aspx

    Several points: "For once, the South Koreans will be able to sell a used weapon at a huge profit (since they received them for free, and have only had to pay for storage and maintenance since then)."
    If they recieved them free that implyies Lend-Lease. Therefore by law the rifles go to the CMP. Right?

    How easy is the conversion from M1 to M2?

    Oneshooter
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    Might be easy, might not. Though I highly doubt that Oleg would like us posting in his house about how to take a legal firearm and make it illegal. Let's keep the discussion away from that bit, eh.
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    Though I highly doubt that Oleg would like us posting in his house about how to take a legal firearm and make it illegal. Let's keep the discussion away from that bit, eh.
    Seconded!

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    wasn't wanting to know "how". This caught my eye as a reason the carbines are not allowed.

    The M1 Carbine can also be easily modified to fire automatically.
    If they are that easely converted then why hasn't the BATF stepped in and declared ALL M1 carbines as "easely convertable weapons" the same as early AR-15 are. Then they would come under the Title 3 weapons list.

    Oneshooter
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    I, for one, still don't understand this fascination with automatic fire. Even assuming you could modify a M1 carbine into a M2, it doesn't make it some magical death stick that kills everyone within a 50 yard radius as soon as the trigger is pulled. The would be shooter still has to aim and still has to be able to hit the target, and going auto makes both of those tasks more difficult.

    I've shot a M4A1 on auto at a man size silhouette that was 20 yards or so away a few times and I think the first 2 or 3 rounds actually hit. Not only does the muzzle go up, it goes to the right too (due to the twist rate I think). If I pull the trigger really, really fast on semi I can get 2 - 3 rounds on target at that range, and without putting the next 3 in the air.

    I know of one shootout in recent history involving two criminals with automatic rifles vs a dozen or so cops; both perps died, no cops did. If the perps had stuck to semi and aimed it probably would have been worse.

    I mean, shooting a shoulder fired auto is fun and all and I'd love to own an automatic 22 rifle, but I don't get the political fascination. I think much of it is due to their rarity; there's something like 200,000 legal automatics in civilian ownership out of a human and firearms population of 300,000,000 each? I'd guess most Americans have never even seen an automatic weapon in real life, hence the idea that they're some kind of magical death stick.
    Last edited by happygeek; January 27th, 2012 at 09:20 AM.

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    I was at a gun show back in the middle 1980's when the ATF came in an arrested a guy for selling the parts to convert MI to M2.
    He may still be in prison---who knows,,,,,,,,,,

  7. #7
    Steering this back on topic - what kind of condition are the Garands in?

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    Now that you have steered all of us back in the proper direction---maybe you should call the CMP & see if they know what condition they (Garands) will be in when they are sold.
    You again will make us all so happy.

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    The M1 Carbine can also be easily modified to fire automatically. While not outlawed in the United States, M1 Carbine imports are usually banned.
    No, they aren't. The CMP has imported many M1 Carbines from many countries. It is only this administration that is banning them.

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    I would love to know if these rifles are in good shape, or have they been stored in a leaky warehouse for the last 60 years. If inexpensive enough and in good shape, I might want one, too.
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    I'll have to wander into the CMP N store and see what's up in a couple weeks.

    What i really want is some more carbines, though.
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    The CMP won't be selling the Korean Garands. The only Garands returned to this nation that the CMP can sell are those that were LOANED to other countries who then returned them to the DOD. The DOD has to, by law, turn those Garands over to the CMP for sale to civilians; the CMP doesn't buy Garands.

    S. Korea, however, claimed that its Garands were PURCHASED from the U.S. (I find that hard to believe, but that's what they claim anyway), and that they are therefore entitled to sell them. What I can't figure out is how these Garands are being allowed back into the U.S. at all, since the reimportation of former U.S. weapons was stopped (by executive order I thought) back in the 80's or 90's. After Denmark returned its 20,000 or so Garands to the DOD some years back, the remained thousands that it had purchased were not allowed to be imported here; most had to be parted out instead. Is this a complete reversal on that "rule", or just an odd exception? Although I'm glad they're being allowed back in, the whole situation is way too arbitrary. Too few people have been granted way too much power over this.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Forgive my ignorance - I don't keep up with the market, as just about everything falls into the "more money than I have right now" category - but any idea what the price of these is likely to be?

    I know it'll be too rich for me, but I have a friend who collects militaria and currently owns a Russian M91/30, a Japanese Arisaka, a Canadian Lee-Enfield and a German k98. I keep telling him all he needs is a Garand and a Carcano to have all the major combatants of WWII...

    I know he'd love to have a Garand, but so far the most he's paid has been just over $500 for the k98, and I think he's reluctant to go above that significantly.

    Is this event likely to lower what you can get a reasonable condition Garand for? My friend wouldn't be looking for "collector" grade, just something that was in working order and not totally beaten up.
    I'm a skinny, rather geeky, over-educated Englishman living in the small-town MidWest who believes in the 2nd Amendment and the RKBA... my existence messes with people's stereotypes :-)

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    Without a bipod and a big muzzle break, isn't firing a fully automatic battle rifle just a waste of a lot of ammo?
    Last edited by Aaryq; January 23rd, 2012 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Keeping it PG

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    Is this event likely to lower what you can get a reasonable condition Garand for?
    See here: http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/rifles.htm

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    ATF Letter (creation date 7/17/2009) my copy downloaded 10/12/2010.

    "Effect of Granting Retransfer Authority to the Republic of Korea for M1 Garand and M1 Carbine Rifles"

    By letter dated May 7 2009 the Department of State approved a request by the Government of the Republic of Korea (ROK) to transfer 87,310 M1 Garand rifles and 770,160 M1 carbine rifles to U.S. private entities for subsequent commercial resale in the United States.
    The guns would have been transferred to US commercial importers over a period of ten years or about 90,000 guns per year.

    For the reasons stated below, ATF believes the importation of these firearms, particularly the M1 carbine rifle and the M-1911 pistol, pose a threat to public safety in the U.S.
    ATF claimed the import of 770,000+ carbines would cause a drop in the price and value of M1 carbines.

    ATF also claimed the 2005 DoS memorandum to permit retransfer of US origin firearms sets the condition that "importers provide end-use and retransfer assurances" but internal U.S. sales (commercial importer to FFL) don't have the "End-User" papers associated with formal military arms transfers.

    But the real threat seen by ATF is M1 carbine easily convertable to M2.

    The M1 carbine is easily converted to a machinegun. To convert the firearm requires seven parts. ... In addition to potential conversion of M1 carbines, importing M1 carbines may raise the risk that fully automatic M2 carbines will be smuggled into the United States. In the past CBP and ATF have discovered instances where fully automatic versions of firearms were attempted to be imported into the U.S. using import permits for the semi-automatic version of the rifle. ... the M1 carbine is likely to become relatively inexpensive and is easily converted to a machinegun, making it potentially popular with criminals.
    The same objection could be raised to the hundreds of thousands of M1 carbines already in civilian hands. Some carbines sold in the 1960s by the US military through DCM (precursor of the CMP) had five of the seven full auto parts already installed (but no switch or rocker arm to make full auto possible).

    It is unlikely that a significant number of the M1 Garands will be used in crime. ... The M1 carbines, as well as the M1911 and M1911A1 pistols, are more likely to be recovered in crimes. ... From January 1, 2003 through June 30, 2009, ATF received requests to trace 1,965 M1 carbines recovered by law enforcement officers.
    After the ATF letter of 7/17/2009 DoS reversed its position on allowing the import of ROK M1 Garands, M1 Carbines and M1911 pistols.

    After two years, DoS has apparently relented on the M1 Garands.

    BTW: I don't own an M1 Garand, but I shoot an original M1 Carbine by IBM 1943 and a M1911A1 Clone by AutoOrdnance in the local Vintage military rifle and pistol matches. Nice to know how ATF and DoS feel about M1 carbines and M1911 pistols (and presumably the potential of their owners).
    Last edited by Carl N. Brown; January 24th, 2012 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Added BTW
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    If the price is right, I may have to pick up one of those Garands.
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    If they received them free that implies Lend-Lease.
    Nope. The Lend-Lease program ended just prior to Korea being liberated from all those years of Japanese rule.

    Any transfer of weapons from USA to other nations after WW2, would have been by some other agreements. Which might or might not have a clause that the weapons must be returned - someday. We here in USA have been able to get rifles from the CMP which have come back from other countries, as noted above.

    It appears that the agreement with Republic of Korea did not include returning the rifles and carbines to US Government.

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    Without a bipod and a big muzzle break, isn't firing a fully automatic battle rifle just a waste of a lot of ammo?
    The M1 carbine doesn't quite count as a "battle rifle" in caliber or recoil so it's a better choice for full auto than the M14 was. Although, the Browning BAR was a favorite to bring into battle for a long time (30.06 in full auto).

    Off topic- full auto is useful when you are using teams and want to suppress the enemy (make him stay still so your other team can flank), but I can't imagine a normal American self defense scenario where it would be an advantage. Heck, I'm not sure it's much of an advantage for the criminals, either.

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    True story (civilian translation of this is no sxxt...)

    My dad was injured in an airplane crash (training flight) in 1942. He mended enough to be allowed to return to duty by that day's standards, but he was still having a lot of trouble with the vision in one eye.

    His squadron was being prepped to go overseas in early '43, and everyone had to qualify on their issue weapon, which for him was a pistol (he was squadron ops sergeant). A couple of his pals, knowing he was struggling with his vision, "donated" one or two of their own shots each to his target.

    The range NCO was clever enough to figure out his target had more shots in it than he started with, and sent him back alone, and he failed.

    His CO pleaded for help -- "can't leave him behind" so someone in the small arms qualification group came up with a solution -- qualify him on a Thompson and issue it to him as his personal weapon. They took about an hour teaching him to start aimed between the ankles and letting the recoil bring the burst up through the target.

    He was qualified before lunch. And went with the squadron. And had to carry that heavy Thompson for the duration, through Pacific, Phillipines, and Japan. I have a picture of him carrying it, somewhere.
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    I have heard the Korean Garands are not in very good shape. I have not heard who the importer will be. Have to just wait and see what happens.
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    I have heard the Korean Garands are not in very good shape. I have not heard who the importer will be. Have to just wait and see what happens.
    Sounds like a nice project turning onto a national match.

    How hard is it to convert to 308?
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    How hard is it to convert to 308?
    What? Why would you want to do that?
    Will

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    full auto is useful when you are using teams and want to suppress the enemy (make him stay still so your other team can flank),
    On the few occasions my Grandfather would talk about France, he would mention coming up against something he called the "Buzzsaw." A machine gun with such a high cyclic rate it would pin them down effectively. But the rate of fire was such that the barrel had to be changed frequently allowing them time to advance and eventually neutralize them. Another of his observations was that the BAR was to get the German's attention while aimed shots from Garands ended their threat.

  25. #25
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    Off topic- full auto is useful when you are using teams and want to suppress the enemy
    Isn't it possible to use aimed semiautomatic fire as suppression too? Half of squad carefully trying to fire at likely spots where the enemy is hiding, while the other half moves, and then they exchange roles?

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