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Thread: Trainer who won't train Muslims or Obama voters

  1. #1
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    Trainer who won't train Muslims or Obama voters

    Remember the guy who wouldn't train Muslims for CCWs? Sorry for discussing a closed thread but this is a piece of information I have waited to hear back from the ATF for 3 months.

    In that thread, now closed, I said I was going to write the ATF to see what their stance on equal access for FFLs - as in requiring an FFL to not refuse to sell based on any constitutionally protected status or condition. I did write the email last November 3, but figured they just weren't going to reply. Well, they finally did and I received their response this week. I felt it was an equal access issue and thought they would require equal access.

    That wasn't really in regard to the Texas trainer, it was just a parallel to it that I thought might be interesting in relation to that thread.

    The reply from the ATF shows that I was mistaken, and based on being mistaken I reverse my view on the topic. If the guy could keep his FFL while refusing to deal with Muslims or Obama voters, then why not his certification to deliver CCW courses?

    ;This is in response to your email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your email, you wanted to know if a federal firearms licensee will face disciplinary actions if they refuse to sell to a person based on race, color, religion etc.

    ATF is responsible for enforcing the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as well as other Federal firearms laws. A significant part of the GCA concerns the requirements pertaining to the manufacture, importation, distribution, possession, and sale of firearms. ATF has no jurisdiction over civil issues pertaining to discrimination.

    We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.

    Regards,

    Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." - Wayne LaPierre
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  2. #2
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    The batfeieio doesn't have a problem with racism, one of the driving forces of most "gun control" laws?
    On the one hand, hooray for limited government ... I guess.
    On the other hand, since they're blatantly unconstitutional ... why not ignore 9a & 14a?
    And on the gripping hand ... lawdy* lawdy* ... good thing whitey don't let those crazy colored folk get no mo gats!

    *(lawdy aurocorrected to lawsuit, thought it was funny enough to share)
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  3. #3
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    How about "No hat, No shirt, No shoes - no service". Now that is in nearly every restaurant. Or - "We reserve the right to refuse service" - also a very common restaurant sign. The owner of a PRIVATE business has the right to discriminate about who may be served. How about "No Muslims may take flying lessons here". That one wasn't used enough - obviously. Just maybe the CCW trainer feels that certain persons, IN HIS OPINION, should not be trained and licensed to CCW. It isn't as though he is the only CCW trainer in the country - there is the option of going elsewhere - there is a list as long as my arm for New Mexico, and I would expect similar numbers in most states that have "Shall License" in their statutes. Leave the guy alone - discrimination is not a bad word, it means using fine judgment on an action, or not, as the circumstances dictate.

  4. #4
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    discrimination is not a bad word, it means using fine judgment on an action, or not, as the circumstances dictate.
    I agree.

  5. #5
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    If I were running the DB for the US gov't, the guy would get the official douchebag card*..

    *the alternative to the British t index system of t\/\/@ts"
    (bad language at the link.. but funny)

  6. #6
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    The owner of a PRIVATE business has the right to discriminate...
    As discussed in the original thread, he doesn't (if you mean privately owned business open to the public; if it is open to members only, that's different).

    There's also the question of whether his state certification can be pulled for his discrimination. I've heard of no such action, so apparently that won't happen. And Keller said that it is fine with him if it does happen:
    I’m not going to [teach Muslims], I will give up my license to teach before I will teach them.
    There's the final question of whether a trainer setting a blanket discrimination policy against people based on their religion is ethical or not, even if legal. I don't think it's close to ethical. He is no friend to the public image of gun owners and gun trainers.
    Last edited by Loosedhorse; February 15th, 2012 at 09:21 AM. Reason: sp

  7. #7
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    ATF has no jurisdiction over civil issues pertaining to discrimination.
    Yes but other parts of the government do have jurisdiction. You might contact The Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice.
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
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  8. #8
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    When I first got my license the guy from the ATF who conducted the initial interview said that we had could refuse to sell a firearm to anyone for any reason.
    EFI, LLC - 07 FFL / C2 SOT in Inwood, WV - Custom Firearms & Gunsmithing

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  9. #9
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    Interesting, an agency that restricts the 2nd amendment doesn't feel the need to restrict the 10th. Gotta admire their focus.

  10. #10
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    . . . and everyone is assuming the guy actually turns away folks who turn up at his door, wanting to pay him for his services.

    Commercials are known to be "fantastic" and "entertaining". Doesn't anyone listen to the radio ads for car dealers?
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    I am not suprised that Jessie, Al & the NAACP are not marching there----THERE IS NO MONEY TO BE MADE THERE.

  12. #12
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    The question probably had the ATF lawyers tied in knots. Does ATF care about anti-discrimination laws? Heck no - they want FFLs to discriminate and turn away customers who seem suspicious. Since they couldn't exactly say that, they settled for the safe "no jurisdiction" response. But I would nearly guarantee that the response took so long because your question went to the legal department and bumped around for a while at the top of the house.

    Way to go, NEOKShooter!

  13. #13
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    Two questions
    • How many Muslims or Obama voters has he actually turned down?
    • How many here approve of turning in to the ATF those whose words or beliefs we disapprove of?
    “It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.”
    — Thomas Sowell

  14. #14
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    It does beg the question what mechanism is used by the trainer to screen applicatants for undesirable political or religious affiliations :-)
    Last edited by rodregier; February 17th, 2012 at 12:46 PM. Reason: spelling

  15. #15
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    I might not agree with what he did but I do agree with his right to do it.
    .
    No people should have to fear the will of their government; all governments should have to fear the will of their people.

  16. #16
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    Wow. I thought as Americans we had rights. I wouldn't train members of an enemy army in the tactics of my forces. Since the Koran is fairly specific about any muslim NOT participating in jihad...I would consider any muslim my enemy, as jihad has been openly declared. I also believe that if a burger king or a car dealer can refuse to serve anyone they choose for any or no reason at all, then so can a guy that sells guns. Protected classes don't apply to private parties regardless of who they do business with. I will liken it to an "employment at will" state, you can't be fired for being a member of a protected class but you can be fired just because. So IMO it would boil down to HOW he turned them down. Just a plain "no, I won't/can't train/sell to you" vs. "no I won't train/sell to you because you are...".

    Oh, and I won't even speak to people that I know voted for barry much less conduct business with them. That's my right.
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