AK47 - why do people repeat ridiculous info?

[21H40]

Nalioth:

Ouch. I couldn't look away from the comments.... That was just mean.

[MechAg94]

I always thought it was becauses Russian 30 caliber was .311" or so and 7.62 Nato was .308 wide.

My Dad had heard that rumor also, but neither of us could figure out how it could be true.

[nalioth]

I always thought it was becauses Russian 30 caliber was .311" or so and 7.62 Nato was .308 wide.

Well, if you just go by that, it'd work in a clanks-down-the-barrel sort of way . .

Trouble starts when you look at the length of the cartridge case:
7.62x51
7.62x39

Guess most folks don't get that far . .

[ants]

In the "Rumors from people who should know better" department: I actually heard the "AKs will fire M16 ammo but not vice-versa" canard from my first-year ROTC instructor in '74. Major M was an MP, who'd actually done a couple tours in Vietnam and still believed it.

Wellll....

Maybe Major M had something going there.
Go look up the dimensions of our 5.56x45 NATO ammo,
and the 5.45x39 Russian ammo for the AK74,
which went into service in VietNam during the last few years of the war.
Actually, M16 ammo is dimensionally smaller and fits in the AK74 chamber.

Just sayin' ...

[nalioth]

Nice try, but the AK74 wasn't used in Vietnam at all (it'd hardly been fielded to the Russian army by the time Vietnam ended)

Unless the Major was a spook with ESP, he'd not have known of the AK74.

[Carl N. Brown]

I don't think they are interchangeable at all.

Cartridge          7.62x39 (1943)         7.62x51 (1954)       
Bullet diameter     7.92 mm (0.312 in)     7.82 mm (0.308 in)  
Neck diameter       8.60 mm (0.339 in)     8.77 mm (0.345 in)  
Shoulder diameter  10.07 mm (0.396 in)    11.53 mm (0.454 in)  
Base diameter      11.35 mm (0.447 in)    11.94 mm (0.470 in)  
Rim diameter       11.35 mm (0.447 in)    12.01 mm (0.473 in)  
Rim thickness       1.50 mm (0.059 in)     1.27 mm (0.050 in)  
Case length        38.70 mm (1.524 in)    51.18 mm (2.015 in)  
Overall length     56.00 mm (2.205 in)    69.85 mm (2.750 in)  

Cartridge          5.45x39                .223 (5.46x45mm)   
Bullet diameter     5.62 mm (0.221 in)      5.7 mm (0.224 in)
Neck diameter       6.29 mm (0.248 in)      6.4 mm (0.253 in)
Shoulder diameter   9.25 mm (0.364 in)      9.0 mm (0.354 in)
Case diameter      10.00 mm (0.394 in)      9.6 mm (0.376 in)
Rim diameter       10.00 mm (0.394 in)      9.6 mm (0.378 in)
Rim thickness       1.50 mm (0.059 in)      1.1 mm (0.045 in)
Case length        39.82 mm (1.568 in)      45 mm  (1.760 in)
Overall length     57.00 mm (2.244 in)      57 mm  (2.260 in)

Well their cases are all rimless, bottleneck, centerfire types.

[ants]

Nice try, but the AK74 wasn't used in Vietnam at all (it'd hardly been fielded to the Russian army by the time Vietnam ended)

Naolith, my father was in VietNam from January 1968 until the helicopters evaculated Saigon on April 30, 1975. After helping several thousand refugees into choppers, he finally left with a CIA spook on an Air America chopper, landing on the USS Oklahoma out in the gulf. The pilot was low on fuel, but he lifted off the Oklahoma anyway and went back in country to find his wife and son. Dad never heard from him again. A week later, Dad called me from LAX and needed a ride home. My sister and I went to pick him up. We found him in a coffee shop at the airport drinking a hot tea, in the same pants and shirt he wore in Saigon on 4/30/75. And he had a cap from the Oklahoma that its skipper gave him. That's all he left VietNam with, after 8 years.

During the summer of his last year in Saigon, Dad had Home Leave and brought me a single round of that new fangled 5.45mm ammunition for my ammo collection. I still have it. Copper washed case with long pointy fmj projectiles.

He had a Thompson, an AK-47, and an AK-74 in his Saigon apartment that he left behind. He got the 7.62 and 5.45 ammo free using a metal detector in the wet swampy dirt on the banks of the Saigon River, where he and his buddies had a speed boat and water skis. VC would bury ammo in the wet mud in spam packs, where they could dig it up later during the invasion. Dad dug it up and used it for range practice.

38 years later it's easy to read Al Gore's Internet and deny that it could have happened, but in 1974 my father brought me the ammo. I understand your denial and I don't blame you, but to me it is a realilty. I still have that copper washed round.


Dad died in 2009. We buried him in the Veterans Cemetary as he wished. He didn't want any fanfare. We didn't put out notice on his funeral, but several dozen people showed up on word-of-mouth. A Navy honor guard arrived. I'll never forget all those people giving him respect, he deserved it deeply.

[pmeisel]

RIP -- a fine tribute, ants.

My dad got invited to go to Laos for Air America in the 60s. He declined but a friend took the invitation. He didn't return.

[Carl N. Brown]

5.56x45mm round fired in a 6.8mm SPC M4gery. The case split, the extractor would not pull it out, had to be ejected by cleaning rod down the barrel.

6.5x52mm Carcano allegedly can be fired in a 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer. The shoulder of the casings get fire-formed for the longer chamber but the necks are shortened.

7.62x51mm NATO allegedly can be fired in a .30-06 (7.62x63mm). The shoulder of the casings get fire-formed for the longer chamber but the necks disappear. Trust me: don't try that anywhere.

I have fired 9x17mm (.380 Auto) in a 9x18mm Makarov pistol: ejection is weak, accuracy is poor (.355 bullet in a .363 barrel), and you can easily get a situation where the extractor fails to extract a loaded round from the firing chamber, leaving the gun loaded after working the slide.

So, yeah, it looks like you can shoot some Xs in some Ys but it does not mean anyone does it in a combat zone. Or that anyone should try.

Especially with rounds so different as the 7.62x39 and 7.62x51, or the 5.56x45 and 5.45x39.

[Bart Noir]

One time, Brits in Afghanistan recieved Russian 12.7x108 ammo instead of the .50 BMG. Some crooked contractor..

I think some of the ammo fired, but it ruined the guns and they needed repair.

If you had looked at the actual .50 cal case dimensions in a earlier post, you would have seen that this is physically impossible. The Soviet case is longer and fatter than the US case designed by [peal of trumpets] John M. Browning.

Another stupid rumor. About the firing of this Soviet ammo in a .50 Browning, I mean.

Hey, do the Brits even use .50 BMG machine guns??

Bart Noir

[therewolf]

This rumor has been around a long time.

IIRC, it was in a Reader's Digest story about VietNam, back in

the early 70's...

[Lanius]

If you had looked at the actual .50 cal case dimensions in a earlier post, you would have seen that this is physically impossible.

Is it really? The chamber is longer and it's base is thicker, but the neck isn't.

I'm not sure how tight MG chambers are.

MG's retract cartridges from belts and insert them into chambers.
Even though the 12.7x108 is longer, it's possible that it may end up partially chambered... which should prevent locking and firing.

[42]

I was told by someone trained on mortars during the cold war, that the mortar one is actually true.

[Bart Noir]

MG's retract cartridges from belts and insert them into chambers.

That is true of some machine gun belts. But there are plenty of designs, especially newer ones that never were chambered in rimmed cartridges, that simply push the round forward into the chamber.

it's possible that it may end up partially chambered... which should prevent locking and firing.

That's exactly my point. The US M2 BMG cannot chamber the Soviet cartridge enough to fire. I would guess the Soviet round will be jammed in tight enough to make the doofus gunner very unhappy he tried to fire the wrong round

One of my fraternity brothers, who had been an Army medic in Vietnam, swore that he had personally picked up ammo from a VC body and used it in his M-16 during a very bad firefight. He would not concede that maybe that VC had ammo for a captured M-16 rifle, which did happen. So my frat brother kept passing around the story that Soviet ammo will fit the US rifles. Sheesh!

Bart Noir

[Lanius]

Is it possible to confuse the two rounds? The story went that they had to disassemble the MG's to get rid of the bad ammo.

As to them using .50 BMG.. they didn't use them in WWII much, I believe, but since then?

[Bart Noir]

Lanius, I hope you are enjoying your visit to the USA. I might be inclined to invite you to a range day, but we seem to have the entire continent between us

The Soviet .50 cal MG round was invented for the DShK1938 (sometimes called DShK38). you guessed it, model of 1938. So they did have the model available during WW2. But I can't think of any pics I've seen of any of those prior to the huge Josef Stalin tanks of the last 6 months of fighting. I don't know how widespread the use of the "Dishka" was in WW2.

I suspect that cartridge looks very similar to the .50 BMG.

Bart Noir

[swgunner]

Bart, I do recall reading somewhere that were some confusion with the Sherman tanks lend/leased to USSR. The confusion was over the M2 which was supposed to have been a 51 cal and the Thompson's were supposed to have been PPSh submachineguns.

This is stated in a Fine Scale model periodical discussing "correct" Soviet Sherman tanks. I can't guarantee the veracity of the claims, but it sounds reasonable and logical.

[Lanius]

I don't know how widespread the use of the "Dishka" was in WW2.

Many Soviet planes used the 12.7x108... the cartridge probably started out in aviation.

The confusion was over the M2 which was supposed to have been a 51 cal and the Thompson's were supposed to have been PPSh submachineguns.

That would have eased logistics..

[swgunner]

Yes it would have eased logistics for the Russians, but you forget that the tanks were rolling off the assembly lines in great numbers and nobody could ensure where a specific tank would end up, so they were all built to same standard at the factory and most were upgraded in the field with dozer blades, the hedgerow spikes in Normandy and many other field efficient mods.

[Lanius]

but you forget that the tanks were rolling off the assembly lines in great numbers and nobody could ensure where a specific tank would end up

What? Are you suggesting US industry was so dysfunctional as to being unable to make sure tanks with serial no.s n to n +100 would get parked a little to the side and then will all be loaded onto a ship heading for Russia?

[swgunner]

What I saying is that many parts were made by many different factories then shipped by rail to other factories for final assembly. Watch some videos of the production lines, it is actually pretty amazing.

If I remember correctly 4 B17's and 10 tanks were rolling off the assembly every day. A destroyer every 30 days (it takes 2-3 years now).

[Carl N. Brown]

It is my understanding that the 1300+ Lend-Lease M3 (Lee sometimes ref'd as Grant) tanks sent to USSR (CCCP) for lend lease were standard production models and had .45 Thompsons racked as standard equipment; because .45ACP was not available in sufficient quantity in WWII USSR, most were stored in reserve.

Russia also received small numbers of the US Reising Model 50 which while light and accurate in semi-auto, failed to impress the Soviets. (Again there was the ammo supply problem, plus the M50 must be "barracks inspection clean" for function and failed the blindfold disassemble/reassemble test at the Army proving ground. US Marines in combat conditions loathed the M50.)

A few years back, some of those unused lend-lease Thompsons were returned from Russia with cut up receivers per US import regulations as spare parts sets. (I guess there are enough legal owners of registered Thompsons to make a complete spare parts set worth importing.)

[Suwannee Tim]

I don't think they are interchangeable at all.....

They are not. Not even close. Anyone who claims they are interchangeable is completely full of it. I have ARs in both calibers and a glance will assure anyone that they are not even close to interchangeable. The Ruskie round is fatter, thus will not fit in a 5.56mm chamber. The US round is longer and thus will not fit in a 5.45mm chamber.

[Lasergunner]

The confusion seems to be more with the posters who observe that there is no compatibilty between 5.56 and 5.45 or 7.62x39 and .308. The Viet Kong were known to sometimes use our 5.56mm ammo in their 7.62x39mm AK47 rifles.

[3fgburner]

...The Viet Kong were known to sometimes use our 5.56mm ammo in their 7.62x39mm AK47 rifles.

Total $#!+-house rumor. It. Will. Not. Work. Period. By way of empirically disproving this, I just dropped a 5.56 into the chamber of my SKS. The bolt will not go into battery, because the 5.56 case head sticks almost 1cm out of the chamber. On top of which, the case head won't line up on the bolt face. Will upload a pic later.