AK47 - why do people repeat ridiculous info?

[bigfatdave]

lasergunner, that is exactly the kind of ridiculous impossible statement under discussion.
where did you get that bit of misinformation?

[3fgburner]

lasergunner, that is exactly the kind of ridiculous impossible statement under discussion.
where did you get that bit of misinformation?

Believe it or not, I actually did hear this from an ROTC instructor in college, in 1975. MAJ M. was an MP, and if I remember right was a 2LT or 1LT for a tour or two in Vietnam. I have no idea how someone who'd actually been there, would buy into the rumor. But he did...

[3fgburner]

For the "Pics or it didn't happen" crowd, I shot this one with my phone this morning, after reading Laser's post

25rcf91.jpg

[bigfatdave]

Believe it or not, I actually did hear this from an ROTC instructor in college, in 1975. MAJ M. was an MP, and if I remember right was a 2LT or 1LT for a tour or two in Vietnam. I have no idea how someone who'd actually been there, would buy into the rumor. But he did...

Just because someone was in a given geographic location at a given time doesn't mean they were carefully observing the weaponry used by the locals. "an ROTC instructor in college" is just another way to say "some random guy repeating a stupid myth".

The concept doesn't stand up to any level of scrutiny, anyone repeating it is too lazy to inspect the two rounds being discussed

Seriously, look at the two cartridges (for those new to this game, the chamber is generally of similar shape to the round being fired)

Which could possibly chamber in the other's chamber, even ignoring the mismatched boltfaces!?

[3fgburner]

Seriously, look at the two cartridges (for those new to this game, the chamber is generally of similar shape to the round being fired)

Which could possibly chamber in the other's chamber, even ignoring the mismatched boltfaces!?

That's why I posted the pic of the 5.56 sticking out of my SKS's chamber.

[bigfatdave]

I know, I was just pointing out that you don't even need to do that to test it, just the empty brass to compare makes it obvious.

I was not complaining about your testing method

[Fallschirmjäger]

I distinctly recall hearing my Drill Sergeant in late 1977 repeating the same "VC were using our 5.56 in their SKS / AK47's, but we couldn't use their ammo in our guns" drivel. I must have done a hundred push ups after raising my hand and asking for a demonstration because I just knew it couldn't be done.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I am late getting to this thread, but when I hear "AK47" and "repeat ridiculous info" in the same sentence, I am often reminded of Samuel Jackson in Jackie Brown.

WARNING! You probably want to wait until the children are in bed before clicking on the link below!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z2ucmARq-k

[3fgburner]

I know, I was just pointing out that you don't even need to do that to test it, just the empty brass to compare makes it obvious.

I was not complaining about your testing method

Either way works equally well

Since I had an SKS and a round of 5.56 handy, plus my phone, that was the easiest way to prove my point.

[Pat McCoy]

This old story probably came from a misunderstanding of compatible ammunition. The US 81mm mortar round could be fire in the Soviet 82mm mortar used by the VC, but I know of no other similar circumstances.

We were also always required to demolish empty M72 LAW tubes after firing them, supposedly so they could not be used as a launcher for the soviet 60mm mortar (even though no one could explain how that could be done with a tube open on both ends and devoid of a breech cap with firing pin).

[Lasergunner]

lasergunner, that is exactly the kind of ridiculous impossible statement under discussion.
where did you get that bit of misinformation?

In the Navy, in the 1980s, there were still a lot of people who had served in Vietnam. The vets I served with who were firearms knowlegeable were unanymous about the AK being able to fire the 5.56 round.

ridiculous

Try some Tylenol.

[Pat McCoy]

Lasergunner, they wrong, and why would you expect Navy vets to know about infantry weaponry?

I served 14 months in Vietnam in 1969-70, as Infantry Platoon leader, Company XO, and in G2.

I was on the "Weapons committee" at Ft Lewis prior to deployment to RVN, and taught AIT (Advanced Infantry Training) troops how to fire every weapon used by the infantry (including mortars).

I have nothing but respect for the guys in other branches, and we relied on their support, but in this case they were wrong.

[bigfatdave]

Lasergunner, they wrong, and why would you expect Navy vets to know about infantry weaponry?

Hell, I'm a Navy vet, and the Navy didn't teach me a damn thing about small arms other than a "gun qual" afternoon a few times a year for the entire boat (that I had to weasel my way into, normally the nukes weren't invited)

The Navy knows how to teach many things, but they're taught with some serious tunnel vision, and old sea stories are often bundled in as fact. And some crusty old chief will rip you new orifices if you question his seventeenth-hand rumor with silly things like critical thinking or facts.

[Lasergunner]

I never said they Navy taught this. A lot of the Vietnam vets I'm referring to were either Gunner's Mates or were in other services at the time of their service in Viet Nam. I ran in to a lot of former Army soldiers who enlisted in the Navy for the purpose of just getting the years they needed for retirement. In the 1980s there were a lot of former Warrant Officer crew chiefs serving as Navy Petty Officers.

I don't have a 5.56mm rifle and ammo to compare with an AK and its 7.62x39mm. I'm not professing that it must be true.

The consensus of those who were there was that Charlie was able to use 5.56mm in their AK rifles. I was given to understand that the AK was effectively a single shot rifle while using the 5.56. You didn't load up a mag and just start ripping away with whatever was picked up on the battlefield. But if you are out of ammo and you don't have an Uncle Sugar to air drop an inexhaustable supply then Charie was going to find a way to use what they had.

The AK is a marvel of German engineering. Considering it's versatility and reliability under harsh and low maintenance conditions, it's not hard to believe that under less than ideal conditions another bullet could be substituted.

[Guns and more]

" The cool thing about them is they could use our ammo in the AK47, but we could not use AK47 ammo in our rifles."

I took that to mean that an AK would tolerate and cycle crappy Russian ammo, while the tighter AR's won't.
Not that the ammo was interchangeable.

[3fgburner]

...

I don't have a 5.56mm rifle and ammo to compare with an AK and its 7.62x39mm. I'm not professing that it must be true.

The consensus of those who were there was that Charlie was able to use 5.56mm in their AK rifles. I was given to understand that the AK was effectively a single shot rifle while using the 5.56. You didn't load up a mag and just start ripping away with whatever was picked up on the battlefield. But if you are out of ammo and you don't have an Uncle Sugar to air drop an inexhaustable supply then Charie was going to find a way to use what they had.

That "Consensus" is WRONG. You can't even get a single shot off, from a rifle that won't go into battery with the round in question chambered.

[Lasergunner]

From all the previous postings it appears that no one here has actually tried it, including and especially the ones who say it must be B.S.

I've looked around the web for some additional info. Here is a shooter on AR15.com:

into_the_knight [Member]4/8/2011 2:25:46 PM
I've actually done this. I have an AK in 223 and one in 7.62. I accidentally loaded the first round of a 47 mag with a 223. It will load and fire. But it just makes a pfftt noise and doesn't cycle the action. The case will be all kinds of split. But it seems to not be dangerous because there isn't much pressure since things are not tight at all in the chamber or barrel. http://www.ak47.net/archive/topic.ht...&f=64&t=135682

On the same site someone else posted this(with pictures):

bolster [Team Member]
UPDATE:

I did it tonight. Pulled a 62gr FMJ from one round of M855. Wearing safety glasses, I inserted the case without projectile and powder into the chamber of my 1977 Romy G build. Then I rode the bolt until it stopped on the case. There was probably between 3/8 and 1/2" of the case head sticking out of the chamber. Stopped and took a few pictures. Removed the dust cover to see where the bolt carrier's tail was with respect to the hammer. Didn't look like the hammer could touch the firing pin.

Pointed the muzzle at a phone book, racked the bolt all the way back, and let if fly. It went all the way home. Stopped and took a picture. Pointed it at the phone book again, pulled the trigger and the primer popped.

I had to use a cleaning rod to get the case out of the chamber, but it didn't take much force. No chance the extractor was going to grab the case's rim. Obviously, there was no fire-forming of the case in this situation, as there would be with a live round.

I will put the pictures up tomorrow.http://www.ak47.net/archive/topic.ht...&f=64&t=135682






http://www.ak47.net/archive/topic.ht...&f=64&t=135682

[KodiakBeer]

The AK is a marvel of German engineering.

???

The concept of using an intermediate rifle round comes from the German STG44, but the AK is quite a different animal and entirely a product of Russian engineering.

[nalioth]

The AK is a marvel of German engineering.

???

The concept of using an intermediate rifle round comes from the German STG44, but the AK is quite a different animal and entirely a product of Russian engineering.

Technically correct.

However, you can see a awful lot of the STG44 in the AK.

[KodiakBeer]

Only the general concept. The AK has a rotating bolt, rather reminiscent of the Garand. The STG has a tilting bolt. The trigger group of the AK is derived from a Browning trigger, the STG from the MP 38/40.

[Lanius]

Entirely Russian?

On Czech forums, the prevailing theory is that AK is to be credited also to Hugo Schmeisser, who was a 'guest' of Soviets until 1952 at the same facility in Izhevsk where Kalashnikov worked...

Kalashnikov himself admitted German help.

[Lasergunner]

When you look at Kalishnikov's earlier designs, they were simple blowback submachineguns. The AK47 was to russian small arms as what German jet fighters were to Russian aviation. The Russians got their hands on the prototypes and the enginneers and technicians that built them.

[therewolf]

Back to the topic, why?

Because people want it to be true.

What better way for a journalist to point up the

ingenuity and resourcefulness of an impoverished, beleaguered

underdog, in an unpopular war ?

There is a lot of documentation of VC irregulars using whatever

weapons were at hand.

What irks me, is the unbalanced nature of the reporting, in this

area.

We all know the dangers of using improper rounds with

incorrect headspacing, in the chamber. Yet there are no stories of

catastrophic failures. Nobody wants to talk about how, when

one of their famous guerilla homespun bamboo mortars failed,

it blew up at the launch site, and killed everyone within a ten foot radius .

Did some VC, somewhere, manage to successfully shoot US ammo

from some tracer shot-out AK barrel?

Possibly.

Will this "US round in an AK" rumor live on forever,

in total contradiction to it's physical accuracy or

overall relevancy?

Probably...

[KodiakBeer]

On Czech forums, the prevailing theory is that AK is to be credited also to Hugo Schmeisser, who was a 'guest' of Soviets until 1952 at the same facility in Izhevsk where Kalashnikov worked...

The original design was worked up in 1944 and rejected in favor of the SKS. If Schmeisser had any input, it could only have been on the fabrication techniques.

[Lanius]

^1944?
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-akm-e.html

This here says 1946 is the first prototype.

There was a similar weapon, AS-44, that didn't make it because of being too heavy (12 lbs empty)..

as44.jpg

Schmeisser went to Russia in late October of 1946, so probably didn't contribute to the prototype..