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Thread: Which M16 fire control parts are ok with our tyrants in an AR these days?

  1. #1
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    Question Which M16 fire control parts are ok with our tyrants in an AR these days?

    Since rule of law is out the window, and we are governed by tyrants, the line is always changing and what pretends to be law is always arbitrarily changed by the tools of the tyrants at the batfe-ces. Olympic used to build ARs in the 1980s with MANY M16 parts in the fire control group (which constitutes the bolt carrier, bolt, the hammer, trigger, disconnector, and sear), but now they can't without it becoming "constructive possession of a machine gun" (a nice little phrase our tyrants have invented to trap us and steal our rights and our property). Well I was at a gun store today, and a customer was looking at a windham weaponry AR15. He opened the gun and partially pulled out the bolt carrier and said it was an M16 bolt (although he was pointing at the bolt CARRIER and it's design). He then looked at a Del Ton AR and said it was a different bolt (I did notice that the bolt carrier was different). Now, since the bolt carrier is part of the "fire control group," I thought you couldn't have ANY part of the fire control group in an AR15 be an M16 part (i.e. hammer, sear, trigger, disconnector, bolt carrier, and bolt). The lovely part is there are tens of thousands of guys out there who have older ARs with M16 fire control parts, who I suppose are "grey area felons." The tyrants won't do a full scale recall because they don't dare, yet I've heard of court cases where people have been charged with "constructive possession of a machine gun" for having an m16 fire control part in their AR (or even in their HOUSE, if they have an AR also).

    NOW, I don't expect anyone to answer this in the legal sense because we don't live under rule of law anymore (another case in point that we don't live under the rule of law, and instead live under the arbitrary rule of tyrants, is there is no definitive number of guns you can sell privately before you are "engaged in the business," and thus our tyrants keep us in fear, keep us guessing, and always keep us in danger from their aggression in the name of the law which is not even defined). I'm merely asking, based on CURRENT RULINGS from our tyrants, can you put ANY m16 fire control part (again, I'm referring to a bolt carrier mainly since this guy at the store claimed it was an M16 "bolt" although he was pointing at the bolt CARRIER, but also an m16 hammer, trigger, disconnector, bolt, or sear).

    I've heard that ANY m16 fire control part in your home, if you also have an AR15, constitutes "constructive possession of a machine gun" in the dictionary of our ever advancing/twisting/changing/lying aggressive federal tyrants. Thus, I find it doubtful that this was actually an m16 bolt carrier in that windham weaponry AR today. Could it have been?

  2. #2
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    Pretty sure the bolt carrier itself is ok. It's only part in the auto cycle is to trip the auto sear on it's return to battery so that the hammer is released.

    The receiver of an AR-15 is thicker where the auto sear is in a M16/M4 so that you can't just drill a hole for the retaining pin and drop in an auto sear. Not sure if that's legally required or just to placate the BATFE/avoid a lawsuit.

  3. #3
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    The bolt carrier is part of the fire control group. I have heard that ANY m16 fire control part in an AR15 or in the same house as an AR15 is "constructive possession."

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    I thought the law was 2 out of 5 parts were allowed and it didnt matter which 2. Usually people go with the machine gun bolt and bolt carrier b/c supposedly they are tougher than the semi's.

    The parts required for a m/g are the bolt,bolt carrier,trigger,selector switch and the disconnect I believe.
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    I can't point to any letters, but the revenuers are allowing M16 FCG parts to be used these days.

    Century uses a metric boatload in their C15 builds.
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    I have "M16" bolts in most of mine. It is heavier and the added mass slows things down, the only "AR15" bolt I have is from Colt, and if you put that in a carbine with a lightweight buffer you get failures to feed because the bolt is going so fast it goes forward over the rising round in the magazine. In all honesty I never believed it, but I have seen slow motion video, and that is exactly what happens, the magazine spring doesn't have enough time to push the round into battery to be picked by the bolt.

    This is a minor problem and easy to remedy, but find it interesting. It is also something most AR owners are unaware of.
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    Many AR-15 manufacturers use M16 bolts nowadays.
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    We're in an area where there is more misinformation (and hysteria) than honest info.

    CIA is correct in referring to the Carrier, all the bolts are identical.

    Bottom line is that the M16 type carrier is OK.
    The tyrants don't sweat about that one any more.

    It's a long story, these aren't all the details, but way back when Colt wanted to sell a semiauto version of the M16 as a sporter, they sat down and made a deal with the tyrants on what they would change on the civilian model. This included a machined surface on the bottom of the carrier to hang up a notch they put on the hammer, just in case an evil owner of one of those semiauto rifles tried to make it go full auto. But that sweetheart deal only applied to Colt, not to any other manufacturer. (P.S. those large pins in early Colt lowers were also part of the deal.) Eventually there were a billion AR manufacturers in business, and the deal between Colt and ATF expired, so the difference between the full auto and the semi auto carrier is a point of history. It makes no difference any more. (Ditto the notched hammer, since that was part of the Colt carrier deal.)

    The only parts they really freak about today are the sear (the semiauto doesn't have one) and the full auto lower receiver (it is machined wider inside and has third pin hole to accept the wide body sear).

    But prosecutors (not ATF tyrants) are handy at piling on dozens of charges for M16 small parts when they have a suspect that they caught doing something else nasty and need additional charges. I would bet all of those cases you heard about were those. Like the guy with an FFL license in upstate New York working out of his house, who made it a business to transfer guns to felons. Hundreds of them! When they busted him, they picked at every tiny thing they could find.

    That's why millions of honest citizens have full auto parts in their semiauto AR15 rifles and carbines, but the tyrants don't care. Because those citizens are not in their target zone.

    Now, the foregoing response isn't a legal eagle response, it is? If some compliance agent is on a tear for your skin, Federal statute gets interpreted broadly at investigation time, doesn't it?

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    I think on the newer AR lowers they dont even have the area where the drop ins used to go milled out. A person used to be able to buy the drop ins from shotgun news or at most gun shows. I was thinking that was the difference between the post ban and pre ban guns. The AWB had restraints on how many evil features the guns could have such as detach mags, bayonett lugs, flash hiders, retractable stocks or side folders. I am not sure if any of that stuff applies. It probably does though b/c we have had so many incidents with bayonettings and flash hiders not giving a shooters location away or the retractable stocks making the gun short enough to sneak onto a commercial flight. Of the course the ever poular shoulder thingy that goes up has been responsible for a multitude of murders as well.
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    That's why millions of honest citizens have full auto parts in their semiauto AR15 rifles and carbines, but the tyrants don't care. Because those citizens are not in their target zone.
    The thing with arbitrary rule instead of rule of law, is trying to feel better about "not being in the tyrant's target zone" doesn't make me feel one ounce better.

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    flash hiders not giving a shooters location away
    The practical purpose of a flash hider is to keep the shooter from losing his night vision by being dazzled by his own muzzle flash in low light situations. That did not keep the AWB authors from inventing sinister purposes.

    In real life crime, I don't think the shooter's position was ever revealed by muzzle flash in any news story I ever read.

    Actual tho' folks with the multiple sources of AR15 parts and the drying up of M16 surplus parts, the ability to use surplus M16 parts for a cheaper AR15 build is less important today.
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    Drifting a Bit...

    ...I seem to recall that a confounding variable in the Olofson conviction over an AR-clone that let off a few "doubles" was that he had substituted a military "selector" lever for the "safety" lever that had come on the gun.

    That was a dubious case, at best, with F Troop only being able to replicate the doubling occasionally and with only one brand of ammo. I don't recall if anyone believed that the lever contributed to the mechanical problem but it ought to serve as a reminder not to change parts that don't need changing.

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    Google 'ATF Bolt Carrier PDF' for a number of documents, particularly hits one and five (ATF Letter and Rulings & ATF Articles).

    Would have uploaded the documents, but they're over the size limits.
    (Well, I see hit #1 uploaded!)
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Quote Originally Posted by basicblur
    Would have uploaded the documents, but they're over the size limits.
    Linking to them would work, and is probably a good idea, as Google returns different results for different folks (even with the same search phrase).

    IOW, your "one and five" might be different for someone else.
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    Linking to them would work, and is probably a good idea, as Google returns different results for different folks (even with the same search phrase).
    Hey, I can't do all the scut work for 'em-they don't pay me enough to hold folks' hands in here, but iff'n they want to come on over and do my yard work for me...

    IOW, your "one and five" might be different for someone else.
    I'm assuming they're intelligent enough to figure it out if the results aren't exact.
    It only becomes class warfare when the working class decides to fight back.
    When they don't, it simply becomes a case of economic genocide.
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    We can learn from the mistakes of others...

    Our man spwenger rightfully notes the David Olofson case. We can learn something from that, something in our favor.

    It is important to note that pre-trial media coverage can never fully report arguments and evidence that haven't been presented in court yet, so we often get a distorted picture of events and we don't learn what we really need to learn. The Olofson matter raised lots of anger among gun enthusiasts before the trial. It kind of died down after trial and after appeals were denied. A reading of court documents, particularly the petition for certiorari, are very revealing.

    The rifle in question came from Olympic Arms 20 years before the incident, with the M16 selector switch installed. For many years, Olympic used that selector and a host of other surplus M16 parts in their factory rifles. At the time, they were cheap and plentiful. Today, commercial parts are cheaper and more plentiful. But it is important to note that M16 selector, hammer, trigger, disconnector, carrier, bolt, firing pin, and all the small springs and pins have been used in commercial semiauto guns for more than 30 years.

    I'm not sure exactly how, none of us are sure, but somehow Olofson's rifle would occasionally fire bursts under exactly the right conditions. In court the experts noted a hammer follow condition, which is actually hard on the rifle but it does shoot short bursts. Ammo with sensitive primers help it do that, when the hammer isn't captured by the disconnector as designed and falls forward with the carrier. In Olofson's case, it was likely worn or broken or defective somehow, since investigation revealed no modifications by the owner. Nothing illegal on that score. It had M16 parts with no modifications. That is one important lesson to learn. Investigators in the felony investigation never claimed that full-auto fire control parts were illegal to own.

    But Olofson's big mistake was to lend the rifle to another shooter, Robert Kiernicki, telling him exactly how to set the selector and hold the gun so it would fire its bursts, and what specific ammunition to buy to make sure it would burst. The shooter took the rifle to a public range and did just that. When they observed the shooter having fun doing bursts, range officials called authorities to investigate. At trial, Kiernicki testified just what is written in this paragraph. Some claim that Kiernicki's testimony was tainted because the prosecution paid him for his time. But the defense team also paid defense witnesses, so I guess it goes both ways.

    [It also angered gun enthusiasts that one or more witnesses and documents requested by the defense were denied by the judge, and certain statements (I think in closing arguments, if I'm not mistaken) were stricken by the judge, who instructed the jury to ignore them. Enthusiasts were sure that the judge was in on a big railroading attempt, out to get Olofson. I don't know. I honestly have no idea either way. I guess it is surely a matter of opinion, I hope you thoroughly research it before deciding for yourself.]

    So the charge against Olofson was not that the rifle was broken, but transfer of an unregistered machine gun because he represented it as a machine gun, and gave it to a guy who went and shot it as such, with witnesses. Instructions to the jury included these exact words: “... a machine gun is any weapon that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single pull of the trigger.” The site www.gunowners.com used to have some court documents, go take a look to see if they are still there. So the gun wasn't designed to shoot as a machine gun, and doesn't appear to have been modified to shoot as a machine gun, but it did inded shoot as a machine gun and he represented it as such upon transfer to another individual with witnesses willing to testify.

    After the conviction, ATF posted a letter on its web site warning that certain fire control parts, including the selector, from a full-auto M16 can produce fully automatic fire under specific conditions, and warned users to be cautious.


    And that's the lesson to you and me: Except the auto sear, M16 parts are perfectly legal as long as they don't make your gun go full auto. If it ever goes full auto, stop immediately and repair it. And for gosh sake, don't go bragging around that you have an illegal machine gun, and give it to a friend to shoot it as such in public.

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    Both the NRA and the ATF have published instructions on how to cut M16 fire control group components to semi-auto-only AR15 configuration. However, there are so many affordable AR15 FCGs on the market, I would leave the M16 components on the market to the owners of registered M16s.
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    The use of M16 carriers...

    The M16 carrier being heavier, it is commonly used to slow down the action when using alternate buffers and ammunition. It is highly effective on semiauto carbines in certain configurations.

    The mechanics of the AR depends upon timing in several ways. The weight of the carrier group and buffer (and the spring to a lesser extent) are matched to desired timing. The movement of the carrier (and buffer) against the spring is a timed event, much like the puff of gas travelling down the gas tube to unlock the bolt while the projectile travels to the muzzle to exit the system. After the bolt unlocks, timing becomes the purvey of the carrier group, controlled by buffer weight and spring rate. Changing carrier weight can be part of gross tuning, where buffer weight is part of fine tuning. The timing of carrier action must match the 'relaxing' or spring-back of the brass case in the chamber. If not relaxed, friction holds the brass in the chamber and the extractor tears off the rim. So you want the bullet to exit the muzzle and relieve pressure in the chamber, but you don't want the carrier to move backward faster than the relieved pressure allows the brass to relax.

    When using steel cased ammo, timing can be especially important because steel relaxes slower than brass. When using a piston conversion, timing is extremely important because the action of the piston rod is instantaneous, where the action of gas in the tube travels slightly slower than the speed of sound.

    Using alternate parts is one of the cool things about the modular AR system. And surplus parts are historically cheap, compared to all the fancy zoot-pricey parts from boutique fabricators.

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    ants, not to cause any issue but see my post at #6, it describes what you are talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ants
    When using a piston conversion, timing is extremely important because the action of the piston rod is instantaneous, where the action of gas in the tube travels slightly slower than the speed of sound.
    This would be interesting to check out in a lab setting.

    The piston movement is not "instantaneous", as it is a known weight and there must be enough gas pressure to start it moving.
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    Yep, swgunner. I just thought it would bear repeating. Wanted to emphasize the point that the heavier carrier has a highly useful function.



    naolith, you're right. I probably didn't express my point clearly enough, sorry
    Direct Impingement: Once the hot gas goes up through the port to the gas block, it still takes time to travel down the gas tube, through the key, and into the carrier before it initiates action to overcome the inertia of the components. It moves roughly the speed of sound down the gas tube, which is pretty dang fast, but it still takes a fraction of a second to get to the carrier key.
    Piston: Once the hot gas goes up through the port to the gas block, it can act directly upon the piston, which of course takes time to get the inertia of the components moving. But since the rod acts instantly upon the modified carrier key, it moves the carrier as soon as the piston moves. It's not just the mass of the piston that gets moving, but the entire action since the rod ties them together. With no gas tube, the time saved is the length of time it takes for the gas pulse to travel down the tube and through the key before it makes action, that's the difference in timing I was trying to express. I just wasn't thorough enough.

    Neither operation is bad, both work great.
    I like them both, and shoot both enthusiastically.
    The majority of my AR guns are direct impingement,
    it's cheaper and easier for me to build.

  22. #22
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    I would like to get some ideas on buying ar lower material for my new project. If you know someone who is reliable and provide quality material, please give me some information about them. I know ar lower manufacturers company from where I can buy product but I am little aware about pricing.

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    Ben Simon, do you want just the raw material, like a chunk of aluminum?
    Or the unfinished casting?
    Or an 80% finished lower?
    Or a finished lower receiver ready for parts?

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