Matching a 303 load to the L.E. battle sight

[BBroadside]

I have a Lee-Enfield No. 4 from 1942 with the earlier micrometer sight. Fold it down, it becomes a fixed ghost-ring sight, more or less. I am going to copy the military load to keep the range measurements on the micrometer accurate.

For unserious 3-gun shooting (eventually), and less-noisy plinking, I intend to come up with a lighter load. I'll probably use 125-grain 303 (0.312" diameter) bullet or a 123-grain bullet for 7.62x39mm (same diameter, I believe).

I don't care too much what the velocity is since I don't have to kill anything. My intention is just to get the right velocity to match the battle sight at a given range (probably 100 yards).

Question is, if my point of impact is too low, should I be increasing velocity (so it have less time in the air, to drop), or decreasing it (so it will have more time in the rising barrel and thus have a higher trajectory)? Do you just have to guess?

Next question is: I've heard you can go much lower in velocity than you should, since you reduce it too much and the bullet won't leave the muzzle. What velocity is too slow to shoot for? If I shoot for 1200 fps, am I safe?
(I'm new to handloading and so far have only copied military loads.)

[pmeisel]

Question is, if my point of impact is too low,

1.should I be increasing velocity (so it have less time in the air, to drop),

Normal for a rifle.

2.or decreasing it (so it will have more time in the rising barrel and thus have a higher trajectory)?

Normal for a revolver or pistol, but not always.


1200 fps is not too slow. I don't feel qualified to give you a minimum number, but there are safe loads in that range.

Enjoy your adventures in handloading. Do you have a good manual that covers the .303 well? If not, some here on the board can recommend one. And there are good boards that cover cast bullet reloading for milsurp rifles extensively.

[RecoilRob]

For a reduced load, I'd agree that cast bullets are a great option. Somewhere upstairs I've got a bunch of 303's with 200grn cast over Red Dot that shoot sweet in my SMLE. If you investigate the lead bullets, I'd bet you go that route.

[No3buckshot]

Most rifle loads down around 1200 fps are done with pistol powder, often Unique or 2400. Most rifle powders will make a mess rather than burn at that low pressure. These are most often done with cast lead bullets, as they have a lot less chance of hanging in the bore than any jacketed bullet does at these lower velocities.

What you need to do, to get what you are looking for, is to get either a computer or a good reloading book (Sierra or Hornady would be the best to look at, with the charts in the back, IF they still have them) and find out what they list at 50, 100 and 150 yds. for the Mk. Vii Ball cartridge. (174 gr. FMJ at their specified velocity) and find the speed of the 123 gr. bullet to give those same readings at 50, 100 and 150 yds. Then all you have to do is get the 123 gr. bullet to move that speed out of the .303 British, IF YOU CAN SAFELY.

If that doesn't work, go for the Hornady 174 gr. RN bullet. It looks much like the Mk. VII bullet turned into a RN soft point bullet. It flies much like the Mk VII bullet does until you get far enough out that the round nose causes enough drag to change things drastically.

Buckshot

[ants]

Paul has the right principles spelled out for your trajectory question.

See if Rob can find in his notes the Red Dot powder charge he uses with the 200 grain cast, that sounds like a winner.

I'll add my tiny knowledge to Bucky's experience:
Lyman's reloading manual lists cast bullet loads down to about 1100 feet per second.
I don't have their dedicated Cast Bullet manual but it supposedly has even more data.



My tiny contributions on your final question about minimum velocity:
- We've lowered rifle velocities down way below 1000 (not in 303 but 30-06 and 223) and they fly right out the barrel and go way past 100 yards, but with less accuracy. Kinda reminds me of shooting a cheap old muzzle loader, it goes Pop and the bullet flies so slow you can almost see it. My instinct tells me that they would still clear the barrel as low as 500 fps. But since accuracy leaves the picture completely it seems useless to consider it. At 1200 fps +/- you have the best of both worlds.
- Don't worry about sticking a bullet in the barrel if you stick to pistol velocities or better. They make AR rifles chambered in pistol calibers, like 9mm and 45acp. Lever action rifles in the 1800's shot 44-40 and 32-20. All those typically shoot way less than 1000 fps and don't stick in the barrel.
- Typical LE groove diameter is 312 or 313, larger with erosion or corrosion. Typical 7.62x39 and 7.62x54 Russian bullets are .310 and .311 inches. You can get them cheaper than true 303 Brit bullets but accuracy suffers somewhat. So we use plain .308 jacketed bullets in the 303 for cheapie shooting when not in competition. They work well enough.
- As long as you aren't afraid to give up some accuracy for cost effectiveness, you might consider Berry's copper plated rifle bullets for 7.62x39. They work anywhere from 1000 to 2000 feet per second, use either rifle or pistol powder, buy them in bulk at about $100 per thousand and blast away.

[pmeisel]

I do have the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual (4th).

It lists 200 grain bullets with both Unique and 2400, starting loads at 1300 and 1400 respectively. I80 grains with both at 1600.

It lists several other powders, but I note those two because they are so common and also favorites of mine. They also list 4227 and 4198. These start out around 1500 fps going to around 1950 at max.

Lyman 49th indicates the blackpowder issue round was 215 grains at 2000 fps, supplanted in 1910 by cordite with 175 grains at 2500 fps (that sounds pretty hot compared to the loads they show, and I am guessing it wasn't really that fast).

If you are trying to use the battle sights, I'd start with either 180 or 200 grains and IMR 4227 or IMR 4198. You should be able to get fairly close.

[BBroadside]

I currently own The ABC's of Reloading, as well as Cartridges of the World by Barnes. Sounds like I need more books!

Fortunately, I just bought a pound of Unique so I suppose I am in business. If I get some good data, I will probably try some subsonic loads maybe with heavier bullets. It would be fun to hear the difference although it's probably still too load to shoot without plugs.

Looking into Berry's Plated right now. I know zilch about plated bullets. Is the deal just that they perform a little bit like cast lead but with less crud in the barrel, or more like jacketed? "Somewhere in between" is also an acceptable answer

I am hoping to convince all the old boys at my club to launch a No-Semi-Autos 3-Gun match so we can dust off our pump shotguns, revolvers, and 100-year-old military rifles. They'll probably just laugh at me but it's worth a shot.

[ants]

BBroadside, send me a PM and I'll see if I can send you some Lyman data for Unique with lead bullets.
Unless the manufacturer tells you otherwise, don't use reduced pistol powder loads with jacketed bullets, only lead.

Berry's has an FAQ on their web site about plated bullets.
Although situated between cast bullets and jacketed bullets,
they actually behave closer to cast bullets.
And similar limitations. But copper fouling only, no lead.

[pmeisel]

The powder websites will provide loading data as well. If you reload much you will come to value more reference books, but really the data on the website is just fine.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

However after checking that link I find it has no "low and slow" cast bullet loads.

I have Lyman's 4th cast reloading manual and can help you out but I am leaving in ten minutes on a short business trip.

If you are still looking come the weekend, PM me and I'll send you what I have.

[ants]

Yes, Paul has more in that 4th Edition Cast Bullet manual than I have. Go for it!!!

[RecoilRob]

Ah.....found it! 13grns Red Dot...'The Load' http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

Reading that article is what gave me the idea to use Red Dot. Cast gas checked bullets weigh 203 and sized .313. Cast of wheel weights + a bit of Linotype. Sorry, I'm not a super anal reloader and as this is just a plinker load for me, I didn't keep very good data. But they are fun to shoot and easy on the rifle...as well as the wallet.

Trying to make a load to match the sights is going to be a bit of challenge, but should be do-able. At short range, 'The Load' shot close enough with my SMLE sights to hit the paper, but I'm not remembering how I had them set to hit at 100yds. Recoil is just right for plinking! Enough to have fun, but not enough to wear you out or intimidate the shy.

[pmeisel]

B, read the article Rob links. Ed Harris is one of the most experienced and respected men in the field.

Just don't try to use that load to get to higher velocities, with fast powders the pressure will get out of bounds quickly.....

[pmeisel]

Some 303 British loads from Lyman Cast Manual #4:

Saeco #305 bullet, 180 grains --

• Unique -- start with 13.5 grains, 1600 fps, tops 16 grains and 1780 fps
• 2400 start 17.2 grains 1600 fps tops 21g at 1860
• 4227 - start 20g 1600 fps tops 28g 2100 fps
• 4198 - start 21g at 1600 fps tops 29g at 2100

Lyman 314299, 200 grains --

• Unique, 11g 1300 fps start -- tops 14.5g 1550 fps
• 2400 start 15.5g 1400 fps, tops 20g adn 1700 fps
• 4227 start 20g 1550 fps, tops 26.5 1950 fps
• 4198 start 21g 1560 fps, tops 28g 1940 fps

I also looked at Ken Waters Pet Loads. Lots of choices, but all for jacketed bullets at higher velocities. With lighter bullets (125g-130g) considerably higher velocities are possible -- 2500 to 2800 fps, and Lee #2 Manual lists a few faster than that.

I think Unique will do you fine for plinking loads, although I don't discount Ed Harris' success with Red Dot, but be careful with fast powders -- sometimes a little more power turns into a lot more pressure faster than you can imagine.

For loads that work with the battle sight settings -- try some 4227 or 4198. If you want to go to jacketed bullets, 4895 is a good choice for some higher velocities.

Enjoy it and let us know how you do.

[pmeisel]

And, I highly recommend you read some things by this guy, a .303 British expert IMO>

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

[rodregier]

Low velocity *jacketed* bullet loadings can result in failure for the projectile to exit. I would guess 1200 ft/sec is probably the threshold for such. Use cast bullets if you want to go really low.