Open Carry Utopia! In Which State Would You Be Most Inclined & Relaxed?

[KodiakBeer]

I always concealed "indifferently". It's not a statement, it's a matter of practicality.

When I first got a permit many years ago, I bought off on the whole "concealed means concealed" mentality and went with the IWB holster tucked under a layer or two of whatever clothes I was wearing. I found two problems with that. The first was that you simply can't get to your gun very fast. The second is that you must buy an entire wardrobe (extra large pants, etc) and even then it's uncomfortable or awkward in many positions, particularly in automobiles.

So, I started carrying in a crossdraw holster under a loose jacket. The gun is right there on my left belly instantly accessible. I don't have to drag away layers of clothing and dig it out, instead its just pull my jacket aside with my left hand and a smooth draw with my right.

Honestly, I think such carry is actually more "concealed" than IWB which leaves a mysterious bulge on your hip. For me, a right hander, it means I carry my wallet, keys, etc, on my right side, so I'm exposing my right side when digging in pockets instead of my left, where the gun lies.

If I'm sitting in a restaurant or whatever and my jacket is open, I really don't care if the waitress or busboy sees my gun. It's the same outdoors if the wind exposes my gun for a moment.

Concealed just means out of plain sight. It shouldn't be a goal in itself.


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[spwenger]

Honestly, I think such carry is actually more "concealed" than IWB which leaves a mysterious bulge on your hip. For me, a right hander, it means I carry my wallet, keys, etc, on my right side, so I'm exposing my right side when digging in pockets instead of my left, where the gun lies.

...is a bigger issue in some jurisdictions (or work venues) than in others.

I have rarely worn anything other than IWB holsters. I have noticed that the issue of "mysterious bulge on your hip" is vastly diminished if you carry two guns in mirror-image fashion, a practice that is probably more compatible with a pair of revolvers, as I carry.

I'm told that Massad Ayoob has made the observation that cell phones have made bulges normal.

[KodiakBeer]

Yes, but... the issue of concealment is (in my mind) the least important aspect of carrying a gun. I don't even know why we separate "concealed" and "open" carry in legal terms.

In a perfect world, we'd just be able to carry. The issue of concealed or open would not even be addressed.

As it is, we must choose, but - concealed still only means out of plain sight, not buried and difficult to access. If you doubt that IWB means slow access, time yourself at the range drawing from an IWB and from a standard holster.

[spwenger]

Yes, but... the issue of concealment is (in my mind) the least important aspect of carrying a gun. I don't even know why we separate "concealed" and "open" carry in legal terms.

...but, if you take a look at the RKBA constitutional provisions in the states that have them, you will see that at some point in our history, discreet carry apparently became associated with criminal intent. In the decades that I have been active in the RKBA movement, I have seen what I view as an ironic shift from seeking to normalize discreet carry, albeit with a government "permission slip," to a demand for open carry.

The law-enforcement opposition to open carry with a CHL in states such as Arkansas, Oklahoma and Texas befuddled me until the last time I attended a law-enforcement training seminar in Texas and noticed that many Texas cops seem to regard open carry as a perk that comes with the badge.

Alaska is not California and, frankly, I think California gunners have a better shot at shall-issue discreet carry than at restoring open carry (which was essentially symbolic anyway, once Reagan signed the bill mandating that the gun be unloaded).

My thoughts... from past experience, I doubt they will coincide with yours.

[KodiakBeer]

My thoughts... from past experience, I doubt they will coincide with yours.

A forum is a place to exchange ideas. If we all thought the same, we'd wouldn't be here.

[pmeisel]

spw, KB, this brings in my present home state of Mississippi, where some old judicial ruling indicates any kind of covering of the gun, including any holster, constitutes concealment.

So there is no "open carry". But a firearms permit is easier to obtain than a driver's license.

I don't carry all the time as it is not permitted in my work place. But when carrying I have found with my lumpy body, IWB doesn't look like anything, or maybe a cell phone.

And as you say, KB, if someone happens to notice, what's it matter? Down here, if you are legal and behaving reasonably, nothing.

That said I would prefer Vermont or Arizona's legal structure, it would save the renewal of the permit. But I probably wouldn't change my habits much.

[Paul47]

There is no law concerning OC in Wyoming. You can carry anywhere. I have, including into the county courthouse. The only questions you will get are things like, "What caliber is that?" but mostly you will be ignored.

Now that CC is permitless also in Wyoming, there is also no fuss transitioning between OC and CC (i.e. taking a coat on and off). The only fly in the ointment is that there are restrictions on where CC is permitted, unlike OC. Most cops don't care about your gun, but I have heard of an occasional case (probably new hires from out of state) of a cop who got annoyed. You don't have to surrender your gun to a cop either that I am aware of (and it would be weird if one asked). I routinely OC in town.

The only reason Wyoming ranks so low in this poll, is that there aren't many Wyomingites. It belongs at or near the top.

[Treo]

But I agree. The state of most comfort is the most cool,

Someday,we pray,that again will be every state.

And when we do Colorado will still be the coolest state

[nalioth]

Now that CC is permitless also in Wyoming, there is also no fuss transitioning between OC and CC (i.e. taking a coat on and off).

CC in Wyoming is only permitless for Wyoming residents.

Out-of-staters must carry a permit issued by a state that has reciprocity with Wyoming to carry concealed.

[sailortoo]

JD "So,only Alaska,Arizona and Vermont have "pure" Constitutional Carry where no permit or reciprocity duties apply for open or concealed carry."

Sort of correct, but the OC part is not. Many states have no restriction on OC, whether a resident or not. NM and Colorado, for instance, and others that I haven't bothered to look up. Kind of a "half-way" Constitutional Carry. Just don't want to let a misunderstanding get started.

[Johnny Dollar]

Sort of correct, but the OC part is not. Many states have no restriction on OC, whether a resident or not. NM and Colorado, for instance, and others that I haven't bothered to look up. Kind of a "half-way" Constitutional Carry. Just don't want to let a misunderstanding get started.

It is not sorta ,it is. If you persist, I'll bring in nalioth who is right above you and then you'll wish you had never posted!

Only those 3 states allow Open and concealed carry without the need of a permit from a state with reciprocity as nalioth explains about Wyoming.To wit:

CC in Wyoming is only permitless for Wyoming residents.

Out-of-staters must carry a permit issued by a state that has reciprocity with Wyoming to carry concealed.

So,as with your home state of wonderful New Mexico,I can carry open,but must have a permit recognized by the "Land of Enchantment" to carry concealed.

Florida being booted out by your DPS last month,I don't. So now when I go to Santa Fe next year I have to OC all the way,sir.

[nalioth]

JD "So,only Alaska,Arizona and Vermont have "pure" Constitutional Carry where no permit or reciprocity duties apply for open or concealed carry."

Sort of correct, but the OC part is not. Many states have no restriction on OC, whether a resident or not. NM and Colorado, for instance, and others that I haven't bothered to look up. Kind of a "half-way" Constitutional Carry. Just don't want to let a misunderstanding get started.

JD is entirely correct.
Alaska, Arizona and Vermont require no permits of any kind for any non-restricted individual to carry openly or concealed in their respective states.
"No permits of any kind required" = "constitutional carry"

There is no "sort of correct" in his statement, as he's not talking about "many states", but those three.

[Johnny Dollar]

Thank you,nalioth. You are absolutely correct.We have to keep emphasizing what is true Constitutional Carry, or otherwise somebody reading this board is going to get into some serious trouble.

That is the last thing we want to happen.

So as of this moment,only Alaska,Arizona and Vermont allow any one of legal age, law wise a legal citizen, to strap on a firearm,concealed or open, with no permit of any kind necessary from another state, and go roaming the streets,fields and open ranges.

Of course, obeying all applicable state and Federal laws in the process.

Does anyone have any questions regarding the 3 states in question and/or the CC procedures?

[IA_farmboy]

I would feel most comfortable open carrying in a state that had unrestricted concealed carry as well. I would feel comfortable open carrying only if I also had a concealed carry permit in that state since I've heard too many horror stories over people getting harassed, arrested, or even convicted, for having a shirt tail or coat cover the weapon momentarily. I would also feel most comfortable carrying openly where it would not seem unusual. That is why I chose Alaska. Arizona is a close second. Vermont is a distant third as it's too close to the People's Republic of New York.

When it comes to the concealed carry law in Wyoming I suspect we will see some sort of court case on this soon. I see issues like some resident getting arrested because they did not have ID on them. It might be legal to carry concealed for residents but if challenged by a zealous police officer the person might just face the problem of not being able to produce proof of residency. It's not really an unlicensed concealed carry law if people will have to carry proof of being a resident. There is also an equal protection challenge that I can foresee happening, a non-resident might feel a bit upset for being considered a second class citizen in the state.

In my opinion (and I realized no one asked for it) there is no such thing as "constitutional carry" so long as the concept of "prohibited persons" includes those outside of prison bars. Much like the proof of residency situation I outlined above a overly zealous police officer might feel the need to arrest a person because they could not prove they were not a prohibited person to their satisfaction. I know we have the presumption of innocence in theory but in practice the gun laws we have assume a person is prohibited until proven otherwise.

[nalioth]

So as of this moment,only Alaska,Arizona and Vermont allow any one of legal age, law wise a legal citizen, to strap on a firearm,concealed or open, with no permit of any kind necessary from another state, and go roaming the streets,fields and open ranges.

I suspect foreigners who are able to legally possess firearms can take advantage of the laws in these states, too.

[Johnny Dollar]

I suspect foreigners who are able to legally possess firearms can take advantage of the laws in these states, too.

That is correct,nalioth,TMK. Those 3 states are remarkable.
Just 47 more to go! But hey,Rome wasn't built in a day!

[spwenger]

That is correct,nalioth,TMK. Those 3 states are remarkable.

The Arizona Citizens Defense League has worked very hard for the last six years, to restore the promise of our state's constitution, that the right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself and that state shall not be impaired.

Alaska was the model for Arizona's current permit-optional approach to discreet carry.

Among our work this year is a bill, currently awaiting a decision by the governor, that would not allow public buildings to post "no weapons" if they do not secure each entrance with an armed guard and metal detector.

We welcome membership from any state in the nation, in the belief that if we are successful in Arizona, it makes it easier for folks in other states to use us as an example.

[AntiqueCollector]

Alaska got my vote. There is absolutely no comparison between the gun culture in Alaska and anywhere in the lower 48.

[Grmlin]

I was stationed in Az for almost 5 years, when I first got there I hated it. I had just come from two years station in Okinawa and traveling around that area (deployments) and I grew up in western Ma (socailist state of massachusetts). I had always been surounded by green, but when it came time to move I relized how much I had come to love Az and not just for it's stance on gun control.

[Johnny Dollar]

There are still 6 weeks to go in the poll and Alaska has come on strongly in recent weeks. So right now it's a 2 state race.
Arizona is ahead 12 to 7 with Montana in 3rd with 5.
Still,anything can happen.

Thank you for all the comments and votes. They are much appreciated.

[Paul47]

When it comes to the concealed carry law in Wyoming I suspect we will see some sort of court case on this soon. I see issues like some resident getting arrested because they did not have ID on them.

Actually the much larger problem in Wyoming is the restriction on places you can carry concealed. I think Wyoming had an early CC law and it probably needs revision in this respect.

[KodiakBeer]

People are going to vote for their home states, but really, I think Alaska is the only place where open carry doesn't raise an eyebrow.

[LewPO1]

I believe that you are right, KB. I voted Alaska, even though my home state has decent carry laws. But Idaho is not perfect -- it got a positive score in the gun-grabber rating of the states.

[JesseL]

I've still been OC'ing around AZ without any issues - including this recent foray into Phoenix:



(there's a holstered pistol on my left-side too)

[nalioth]

I've still been OC'ing around AZ without any issues - including this recent foray into Phoenix:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...ightRider1.jpg

(there's a holstered pistol on my left-side too)

Thanks for the explanation about the pistol

You can't "OC" a rifle or shotgun because you can't "CC" one, either (at least in Texas). . .