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Thread: How to regain ststes rights?

  1. #1
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    How to regain ststes rights?

    Since the early 1900's the Several States have seen their rights and control of the Federal Government steadily erode to the point of non-existence.

    We have had several discussions about the popular election of senators being as contributing factor, and I have agreed with this in principle, though there are others that disagree, and that is ok.
    Along a similar line, in one of the books I am re-reading, the Founding Fathers were discussing the payment of Representatives and Senators, how much, whose responsibility would it be to determine how much, etc. Many felt it was inappropriate for Congress to set their own pay scale as it might lead to "feathering their own nest". (Fox watching the hen house and all that.) Ben Frankilin went so far as to submit a proposal that all representation in Congress should be a position of stature and should be without salary or emolument.

    In my readings on the subject to date, one possible option has not shown itself as having been discussed:
    Making each State responsible for the amount their Representatives and Senators are paid and also making the States responsible for paying them. That will remove them from sucking off the Federal Teat and voting themselves pay raises and benefits while at the same time making them much more accountable to the People.

    Why not?

    Zip
    "Few of the great tragedies of history were created by the village idiot, and many by the village genius." Thomas Sowell
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    Why not?
    Asking a congresscritter to give up power? Are you some kind of anarchist?

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    Why not. But Direct Election of Senators must be reversed. This is the one largest Amendment mistake,surpassing Income Tax,Prohibition and Womens Suffrage.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

    'Harry Callahan' Magnum Force 1973

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    Womens Suffrage
    Let the record reflect I made no rant or lowered myself to petty male bashing from this atrocity.

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    I let that comment stand with no emoticon to get just this reaction!

    Test results: Positive. Forgiveness: Probably not. It was a joke,Selena! Here is the smiley . Again!
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

    'Harry Callahan' Magnum Force 1973

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    I let that comment stand with no emoticon to get just this reaction!
    When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
    They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws.
    'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
    For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.
    Gratuitous Kipling reference

    Please remember that while it is true that everyone makes mistakes, it is equally true we must live with our mistakes. Which is why we as a society should hold on to the authority we retain with the greatest of jealousy. And to recover power and authority given to our government in a weaker moment as best we can.

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    I agree on returning selection of Senators to the state legislators, and being paid an honorarium by the states. One of the most important things, in my mind, is to put roadblocks in the way of folks becoming career politicians. Mandatory (but fairly generous) term limitations for Congressmen would be good, too, but sometimes it takes a couple of terms to really understand some of the issues involved. But on the other hand, sometimes it takes a couple of terms to become entrenched in the graft and self-service that occurs, so there's a balance to be struck there.

    Banning lobbyists would not be a bad idea, either. Admittedly, lobbyists provide an information source for issues in which a representative (Congress or Senate) may not be expert, but they also are "salesmen" for their particular issue. Someone should be able to come up with a "balancing act" for that, too.

    And indirect campaign support, apart from the plain old campaign contribution issue... jeeze, don't get me started on that.

    Terry, 230RN
    Last edited by 230RN; May 2nd, 2012 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Typos
    Trouble is, these jerkwads can pass dumb, self-serving, agenda-driven stupid laws much faster than we can beat them down in the courts. And they're well aware of that.

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    Well, as I recall, the thing that took away states' rights to begin with was a small little event called the Americal Civil War. So, that would mean that in order to get states' rights back, you'd need a, hmmm, let me see...

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    It is a pie-in-the-sky idea, but ...

    Let the states, as a group, determine the pay of Senators and Representatives. All other benefits would be based on the benefits available to employees of the respective states. Let the individual states pay for the salaries and benefits of their members of Congress. And, finally, build in a few incentives for members of Congress to actually do their jobs - for instance, no pay if annual budget and appropriation bills were not passed by a specified date.

    Realistically, the states could probably only regain their rights if two-thirds of the states could agree to call a constitutional convention.

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    People would never go for States rights. Just look at the arguments for national carry laws. Seems even those on our side are perfectly willing to give up States rights when it comes to forcing other States to enact laws they don't want.

    Michael

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    People would never go for States rights. Just look at the arguments for national carry laws. Seems even those on our side are perfectly willing to give up States rights when it comes to forcing other States to enact laws they don't want.
    We have a winner. I would start my rant right about now but the 12 step program is working.

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    If at first you don't secede, try again
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

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    Arizona made a stand today, by passing this through the legislature.

    State of Arizona
    House of Representatives
    Fiftieth Legislature
    Second Regular Session
    2012


    HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION 2004



    A CONCURRENT RESOLUTION

    PROPOSING AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION OF ARIZONA; AMENDING THE CONSTITUTION OF ARIZONA BY ADDING ARTICLE II.I; AMENDING ARTICLE XX, PARAGRAPHS 4 AND 12, CONSTITUTION OF ARIZONA; RELATING TO STATE SOVEREIGNTY.





    Be it resolved by the House of Representatives of the State of Arizona, the Senate concurring:
    1. Article II.I, Constitution of Arizona, is proposed to be added as follows if approved by the voters and on proclamation of the Governor:
    ARTICLE II.I. DECLARATION OF STATE SOVEREIGNTY
    1. Declaration of sovereignty
    SECTION 1. A. EACH STATE OF THE UNION POSSESSES FULL ATTRIBUTES OF SOVEREIGNTY ON AN EQUAL FOOTING WITH ALL OTHER STATES, THE RETENTION OF WHICH IS RECOGNIZED, ACKNOWLEDGED AND GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
    B. STATE SOVEREIGNTY IS FUNDAMENTAL TO THE SECURITY OF INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, THE PERPETUITY OF FREE GOVERNMENT AND THE INHERENT POLITICAL POWER OF THE PEOPLE.
    C. THE STATE OF ARIZONA DECLARES ITS SOVEREIGN AND EXCLUSIVE AUTHORITY AND JURISDICTION OVER THE AIR, WATER, PUBLIC LANDS, MINERALS, WILDLIFE AND OTHER NATURAL RESOURCES WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES EXCEPT FOR:
    1. TERRITORY ESTABLISHED AS INDIAN RESERVATIONS BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
    2. LANDS OF THE UNITED STATES OR LANDS OVER WHICH JURISDICTION HAS BEEN CEDED, IN A MANNER PRESCRIBED BY LAW, TO THE UNITED STATES PURSUANT TO ARTICLE I, SECTION 8, CLAUSE 17, CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
    2. Article XX, paragraphs 4 and 12, Constitution of Arizona, are proposed to be amended as follows if approved by the voters and on proclamation of the Governor:
    Fourth. Public lands; Indian lands
    Fourth. The people inhabiting this state do agree and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated and ungranted public lands lying within the boundaries thereof and to all lands lying within said THE boundaries OF THIS STATE owned or held by any Indian or Indian tribes, the right or title to which shall have been acquired through or from the United States or any prior sovereignty, and that, until the title of such Indian or Indian tribes shall have been extinguished, the same shall be, and remain, subject to the disposition and under the absolute jurisdiction and control of the Congress of the United States.
    Twelfth. Lands granted to state
    Twelfth. The state of Arizona and its people hereby consent to all and singular the provisions of the enabling act approved June 20, 1910, concerning the lands thereby granted or confirmed to the state, EXCEPT FOR the terms and conditions upon ON which said grants and confirmations are made, and the means and manner of enforcing such terms and conditions, all in every respect and particular as in the aforesaid enabling act provided AND THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR THE USE AND DISPOSITION OF THE LANDS.
    3. The Secretary of State shall submit this proposition to the voters at the next general election as provided by article XXI, Constitution of Arizona.
    This was sent to the Secretary of State, to add to the ballot in November. I will be voting Yea. I call this a good beginning.
    If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?

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    I grew up in WV. Two appointed WV senators were barons Henry G. Davis and Stephen B. Elkins: Both were corrupt to the core. The idea that somehow the appointment of US senators by state legislatures would restore "states rights" rings hollow. IMO: Its very naive to assume that state legislatures are capable of selecting better US senators than the electorate. The OK legislature is corrupt to the core: i would not trust them with the appointment of a dog catcher.

    After the Civil War robber barons bought US senate seats for themselves and their cronies. Both houses of a bi-cameral legislature sometimes voted for different senate candidates: There were 75 legislative deadlocks from 1885 to 1912. In a few cases two men were sent to DC to fill one senate seat. In some cases senate seats sat vacant for as long as four years.

    http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/...n_Senators.htm

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...032910,00.html

    The main driving force for reforming that provision, starting in the mid-1800s, was the widespread perception that the selection of Senators was rife with corruption and special-interest politics. The case of Montana's William A. Clark caused particular outrage. In 1900, his Senate colleagues determined that he had given over $100,000 in bribes to members of the legislature that chose him. He quit when his colleagues were on the verge of voting him out.

    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...#ixzz1tlMVKuXs


    Senator William Lorimer was the straw that broke the appointment of US senators:

    http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts...?index=L000444

    Senator-elect to the United States Senate for the term that had commenced March 4, 1909, and served from June 18, 1909, until July 13, 1912, when, after a Senate investigation and acrimonious debate, the Senate adopted a resolution declaring “that corrupt methods and practices were employed in his election, and that the election, therefore, was invalid”
    The appointment of US senators will not happen in any of our lifetimes.

  15. #15
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    the selection of Senators was rife with corruption and special-interest politics
    It's so much better now ...

    Anyway, something is wrong when - for example - a majority of states are against Obamacare, but the majority of senators voted for it
    Governments don't live together. People live together.

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    These were exactly the incidents I was thinking about when I recently started the poll on the subject.

    I haven't yet voted or posted over there, but the above gives a hint to my thoughts.
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

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    Anyway, something is wrong when - for example - a majority of states are against Obamacare, but the majority of senators voted for it
    OK, I can't allow myself to rant so I'll just repeat someone else's rant!!!

    This from an ancient called Ogden Nash...

    On a dusty southern chain-gang, on a dusty southern road
    My late-lamented pappy made his permanent abode,
    Now while some was there for stealing, my pappy's only fault
    Was an overwhelming weakness for criminal assault.
    His philosophy was simple, and free of moral tape,
    "Seduction is for sissies; a he-man wants his rape!"
    Pappy's total list of victims was embarrassingly rich
    And though one of them was mammy, still he could not tell me which.
    Well I never went to college, but I got me a degree,
    I guess I am the model of a perfect S.O.B,
    I'm a debit to my country, but a credit to my dad,
    The most expensive senator this country ever had.
    I remember pappy's telling me, "Boy, rapin' is a crime
    Unless you rape the voters, a million at a time."

  18. #18
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    Justice Antonin Scalia is one of the people pushing for the appointment of US senators. Strange that a justice of SCOTUS is concerned with states rights: The SCOTUS has done more to weaken and trash states rights than the legislative and executive branches of government combined.

  19. #19
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    Justice Antonin Scalia is one of the people pushing for the appointment of US senators. Strange that a justice of SCOTUS is concerned with states rights:
    Scalia has made several 'progressive' rulings one of the most notable in the area of self defense. The more material I read of his the more I wonder if he isn't a closet Ayn Rand individualist.

  20. #20
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    Selena, to some of us, Ogden Nash is almost a contemporary.

    My mom could recite Ogden Nash verse freely when younger. She's slipping a little now, but "Purple Cow" is still one of her favorites.
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

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