Will THIS gestapo action by ATF wake nra up?

[CIA_ran_9/11]

I've followed the illegal actions of the atf for years, but this just frightens the hell out of me. We sometimes call the atf the gestapo, referencing a nationwide, lawless group of thugs that didn't respect any of the God given rights by the German people, and I think we've become numb to federal tyranny and police "entry" of our homes. It's not called a home invasion anymore, it's "dynamic entry." It's not violent thuggery (even though it is) thanks to the war on drugs allowing "no knock" warrants by militarized police.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/05/3...and-her-child/

The totally illegal home invasion is outrageous enough (btw where is the sheriff to arrest these atf scum for violating her 4th amendment rights and pretending to be law enforcement in his county?) but this just took the cake:

The U.S. Attorney’s Office said it will represent the ATF vigorously.

Yep, the same "justice" department that sent 2500 guns to mexican cartels and committed more felonies than we can count. This same "justice" department is going to "vigorously" fight a victimized woman, a woman and child victimized by this "justice" department's lawless gestapo. Where is the nra on this?

The award for scariest outrage was the picture in the story. Do you see what is SERIOUSLY wrong on this thug's back (on the back of his military uniform)?



The word "police" does NOT, repeat NOT belong on the back of someone who has ZERO law enforcement jurisdiction within any state. Just because the local police chief/sheriff is a coward and looks the other way, or gives permission in exchange for federal funding, DOESN'T make these scumbags "police."

[Sheik Yerbouti]

No-knock warrants have no place in a free society. "Dynamic entry" should only be used when there is a verified clear and present danger to innocents.

The militarization of police in the USA has occurred over a period of 4 decades, and its roots are the "War" on Drugs. However, I blame the voters, because they keep electing the incumbents that come up with these hare-brained ideas. Ergo, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[CIA_ran_9/11]

No-knock warrants have no place in a free society. "Dynamic entry" should only be used when there is a verified clear and present danger to innocents.

The militarization of police in the USA has occurred over a period of 4 decades, and its roots are the "War" on Drugs. However, I blame the voters, because they keep electing the incumbents that come up with these hare-brained ideas. Ergo, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Agreed.

Please join mpp.org to help end the satanic war on drugs which is at the root of this scary militarization of the police and open destruction of the 4th amendment. These gestapo agents didn't even bother to get a warrant so I guess the 4th amendment needs to be REPASSED into law.

Also, please call both your U.S. senators, reference this story by title and ask them to look it up (which they usually will) and forward it to the senator. Toll free to the U.S. capitol switchboard: 1-877-762-8762. Yes I've done this with both my U.S. senators. Also specifically ask them to immediately work to defund the ATF, close it, and transfer it's few legitimate duties to the FBI (which the FBI doesn't want because it doesn't want it's wonderful image tarnished by evil agendas that the establishment has planned for us).

[ConstitutionCowboy]

If you read the Constitution, you'll find the only allowed force to the Feral Government is to call up the militia(Article I, Section 8, Clause 15). Any force exercised other than with the militia is no different than force applied by a foreign nation. The Feral Government has gone from a servile states-sanctioned entity to an antagonistic dictatorial enemy of the several states. We're on the verge of being overthrown by our own creation.

Woody

[MamaLiberty]

Say, could someone please detail exactly what "few legitimate duties" the BATFE is supposed to have? Same for the FBI, actually.

I can't think of a single thing...

[ConstitutionCowboy]

I believe the FBI has legitimate duties in investigating federal crime but should never be engaged in any form of law enforcement - even something as simple as arresting someone for spitting. Federal law enforcement is the duty of Congress with the aid of the militia in command of the Chief Executive. Otherwise, it belongs in the purview of the several states, counties, cities, and towns.

Most of the rest of the alphabet agencies and bureaucracies shouldn't exist.

Woody

[IA_farmboy]

I believe the FBI has legitimate duties in investigating federal crime but should never be engaged in any form of law enforcement - even something as simple as arresting someone for spitting. Federal law enforcement is the duty of Congress with the aid of the militia in command of the Chief Executive. Otherwise, it belongs in the purview of the several states, counties, cities, and towns.

Most of the rest of the alphabet agencies and bureaucracies shouldn't exist.

Woody

I see your point but I do feel a need to correct you. There are several enumerated powers that allow for federal law enforcement. The Constitution empowers the federal government to enforce laws on the counterfeiting of money, bankruptcy laws, crimes committed at sea, and a few other cases. I would suspect that the "necessary and proper" clause allows for a police force to protect federal properties from theft, vandalism, and so forth. This could also include spitting on federal property.

I agree on your general principle though. No federal law enforcement officer should act outside of federal property, or the open sea, without first obtaining the permission of the state, territory, protectorate, or whatever where they are acting. This is the intent of "sheriffs first" legislation that is being considered in many states.

Part of the problem is that its not only the BATFE doing raids like these. This problem goes deeper than just one federal agency. We're seeing city police doing this as well.

<deleted>

I'm reminded of another "great idea" from some government officials. They thought it'd be a good idea to put the drug SWAT teams in ambulances so the drug dealers would not be alerted to their presence by the big van with "police" written on the side. Once the drug gangs figured this out then every ambulance became a bullet magnet. They had to stop the policy and announce publicly this policy change to keep ambulances from getting shot up.

There is one of two inevitable outcomes and neither are good. One is that the thugs figure this out and start busting down doors while calling out "police!" and the occupants are lulled into compliance. This will result in innocent people ending up dead at the hands of thugs.

The second possible outcome I see is someone killing a police officer that has entered the home. I doubt that even the hard armor plate that GI infantry wear can stop a 12 gauge slug at close range. That's assuming an occupant doesn't fire a (un)lucky shot to a police officer's head with something as small as an air pistol.

Both situations have happened before but not at enough frequency to get people's attention just yet. People in a free country should not have the police breaking down their door unannounced in the middle of the night. All police raids should be done in broad daylight unless there is a very specific and urgent need to do otherwise.

[CIA_ran_9/11]

Say, could someone please detail exactly what "few legitimate duties" the BATFE is supposed to have? Same for the FBI, actually.

I can't think of a single thing...

You're correct. You are correct in principle, and you are correct in sentiment. When I say "legitimate duties" of the ATF, I'm referring to collecting alcohol/tobacco taxes. Hence this furthers the truth that the atf should be turned BACK to the IRS for those legitimate duties. The very very evil people who created the atf, wanted an agency that could get away with black operations without sullying the image of the "prestigious" fbi, as well as running the VERY UNPOPULAR agenda of disarming the American people. The existence of the atf is proof of an ongoing agenda by the feral "government" to disarm us. Many people ask me why or how our own government could turn on us like this, and do it for so long (thus overturning the theory of "rogue agents" that many people cowardly subscribe to). Basically, a faction of very evil individuals from the globalist establishment has full control over your federal entity. Hence, you have to elect people who will shut down the federal entity. It has become extremely dangerous. Just ask the civilians of "eye rack." Ask JFK. Ask the 3000 dead Americans from 9.11.

[Dr. Detroit]

My favorite quote from Congressman John Dingell (note the date -- 17 years ago!):

“The consequences of the behavior of the BATF . . . is that they are not trusted. They are detested, and I have described them properly as jackbooted American fascists. They have shown no concern over the rights of ordinary citizens or their property. They intrude without the slightest regard or concern.” --Cong. Rec. 8 Feb. 1995: H13s82.

Cheers,
Dr. Detroit

[CIA_ran_9/11]

My favorite quote from Congressman John Dingell (note the date -- 17 years ago!):

“The consequences of the behavior of the BATF . . . is that they are not trusted. They are detested, and I have described them properly as jackbooted American fascists. They have shown no concern over the rights of ordinary citizens or their property. They intrude without the slightest regard or concern.” --Cong. Rec. 8 Feb. 1995: H13s82.

Cheers,
Dr. Detroit

Excellent quote. The problem is that the ATF are detested BY DESIGN. The powers-that-be planned on detestable activities and wanted a agency that could be the hated agency. The scapegoat. The agency where standards were below the basement, SO THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE NOT SURPRISED in any way by the atf's actions. If the FBI was becoming the hated agency, if you suppose that the ATF had never been created, then the American people would begin to hate all of federal so called law enforcement. As it stands now, the federal establishment gets it's cake and eats it too. It gets to appear above it all, while maintaining a rogue agency to do it's dirty work of intimidating, bullying, stealing, disarming, and terrorizing the American people.

[ConstitutionCowboy]

I see your point but I do feel a need to correct you. There are several enumerated powers that allow for federal law enforcement. The Constitution empowers the federal government to enforce laws on the counterfeiting of money, bankruptcy laws, crimes committed at sea, and a few other cases. I would suspect that the "necessary and proper" clause allows for a police force to protect federal properties from theft, vandalism, and so forth. This could also include spitting on federal property.

You have to be careful with the nuances in the language here. As for the counterfeiting, Congress has power to PROVIDE for the punishment of counterfeiting. That means Congress can appropriate money to try and incarcerate those convicted of counterfeiting. It also means it can pay the militia's expenses in arresting the perps for trial.

Congress sets the standards on bankruptcy, it doesn't enforce it.

There is nothing in the Constitution that authorizes Congress to create a police force of any kind. It must utilize the militia. The necessary and proper clause grants Congress power to create law only in those specific areas actually listed in the Constitution; most of which are in Section 8 of Article I, and a few elsewhere in the main body of the Constitution and the amendments.

Congress has autonomy in the military forces; land purchased from a state for forts, federal buildings, etc.; and over Washington, DC, and those are the only places the Feral Government my enforce laws without calling upon the militia. Out here in the rest of the country, law enforcement belongs to the several states, and only the militia may be used to enforce Feral laws out here.

I like it that way, and truly wish Congress and the several states would abide the Constitution, because it is way too much of a tyranny as things are run the way they so unconstitutionally are now.

Woody

[Mr. James]

When the friggin' "Department of Education" is armed to the teeth, we've really reached tipping point. There has to be some push back, and I don't mean executing feds. But truth be told, if they come smashing my door down, I'm shooting back - not out of malice, but out of fear for my life from a criminal gang. I'll die for my efforts and be universally reviled post mortem in the press, but so be it.

We're nowhere near there yet (yes, I'm hopelessly optimistic), but keep that famous Solzhenitzyn quote handy . . .

[Silver Bullet]

Will THIS gestapo action by ATF wake nra up?

It's not more he NRA's responsibility to address this than anyone else's, including yours.

Just because you're used to them doing your job for you doesn't mean they owe it to you. In fact, if you're not a member they don't owe you anything. You're just used to freeloading.

[Powderman]

deleted

Thanks a bunch.

[Jamie B]

deleted

That has to be the most ignorant comment that I have ever seen here.

[Treo]

deleted

That is way, way out of line

[Old Dog]

IA Farmboy said,

deleted

Whoa. I guess lately I've come to expect comments such as this on this forum. Pretty sorry, that remark.

[IA_farmboy]

That has to be the most ignorant comment that I have ever seen here.

I'm probably digging myself deeper in a hole here but I stand by my comment. Perhaps I need to clarify.

I am not saying we need to go hunt down the police and shoot them. What I'm saying is that tactics like this are going to get cops killed by some well meaning and innocent citizens. We've seen the police screw up before and get the wrong house. If the police do this long enough the law of averages are going to catch up with them and we are going to see things go horribly wrong and cops are going to end up dead.

Imagine this scenario. You are at home and you hear a noise outside. You try to turn on the lights but the power is out. You look out the window and you see people dressed in black moving around and holding what looks like rifles. You pick up the phone to call 911 and find the line is dead. These figures moving out in the darkness look ominous so you grab your shotgun and try to feel out where you left your cell phone.

You hear some one kick in the front door and what sounds like dozens of feet go stomping through your home. Another crash and your bedroom door flies open. Fearing for your life you shoot at the first figure coming at you in the moonlight. Then you hear, "Police! Put your gun down and get on the floor!"

I don't remember the details but this has happened several times before. A home owner shot an invader and it ended up being a police officer serving a no knock warrant on the wrong house. It turned out that it was the next door neighbor that was dealing drugs and the snitch gave the wrong address.

Just as unfortunate is when the police get the wrong house and its the home owner that ends up dead. For some reason though these stories don't get near as much coverage as when an officer ends up dead.

It's not hard to find these stories if one wanted to find them. Cops do a raid because someone called about grenades he saw in the window of an apartment. The police bust down the door and the occupant fires on them. The police return fire and he gets shot in the head by the police and lives but with permanent brain damage. Turns out the grenades were inert, just wooden carvings and empty surplus casings.

Another example is a raid on a house because someone called in a marijuana growing operation a guy had going on in his garage. There were potted plants set up under grow lamps. The police do a late night no knock raid and find bonsai trees, not marijuana.

These no knock raids are becoming standard operating procedure and there will come a time when one of these raids will go horribly wrong and a lot of innocent people will end up dead, police included. I just believe these tactics will continue until a screw up of epic proportions happen.

This is not meant to be an attack on the police. The vast majority of them are honest people that want to do a good job and keep us safe. The problem is that people, police included, are fallible. I predict that unless we eliminate no knock warrants by some other means we are going to see a series of unfortunate events that will result in the death of a lot of honest and well meaning police officers. It will take an event like this to burn the problems of no knock warrants into our collective memory.

[IA_farmboy]

There is nothing in the Constitution that authorizes Congress to create a police force of any kind. It must utilize the militia.

How do you define the militia? Couldn't the FBI be considered part of the militia? I'm just confused I guess. First you say the federal government cannot have a police force of any kind then you say the militia can enforce federal law. If the militia is enforcing federal law then do they not become, by definition, a federal law enforcement agency? If they are enforcing the law then are they not a police force?

One thing that bothers me about this is that the founders believed in the separation between the military and law enforcement. This line can become blurred at times but the intent was to assure that the military answered to a civilian authority. If we have the militia called to enforce federal law then this concept of preventing a military occupation of the populace is at risk.

There is always going to be a need for some level of federal law enforcement somewhere. The distinction between the military and civilian functions of the federal government can get lost if the militia is called to enforce the law upon civilians.

[pmeisel]

I think a positive step would be for the ACLU to begin widely attacking no-knock warrants, and aggressively pursuing warrantless searches, with key focus on multi-jurisdictional task forces and Federal agencies.

It might take a few years but perhaps we could see rulings from the federal bench prohibiting such outrages.

I don't think we need more citizen resistors. Unfortunately these martyrs would be seen by the tame nanny-statists to be somehow in the wrong. Wearing a badge makes you right and smart, you know....

[Selena]

I'm probably digging myself deeper in a hole here but I stand by my comment. Perhaps I need to clarify.

Unfortunately I have to agree within pretty specific limits. Considering the Harless and Bisard incidents, perception is becoming more and more that the only way for a bad cop to meet justice is through the strains of 'Amazing Grace.'

Home invasion is a cost effective police tactic, since the law seems unable or unwilling to make such atrocities more expensive for the protection of a peaceful society perhaps all that is going to put the practice in the cold light of true justice is for the people to say I will be safe in my home. No matter who the thugs that break in are.

[Temma]

The BATFE is filth. How do you EXPECT filth to act?

Have they EVER acted any better?

[Treo]

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that our founding fathers (under conditions far worse than ours) exhausted every legal means of recourse at their disposal before resorting to force of arms

[MamaLiberty]

You're correct. You are correct in principle, and you are correct in sentiment. When I say "legitimate duties" of the ATF, I'm referring to collecting alcohol/tobacco taxes.

If we accept the legitimacy of "taxes" of any kind, we agree to the legitimacy of anything they choose to do. It's a matter of principle, not of one detail or another. How does it matter whether it is a plant, a liquid or our guns they wish to "regulate" and tax?

What gives anyone the legitimate right to extort money - at gun point, no less - from another person for any reason?

You either own your life and your ethically acquired property, or you don't. No person or entity can legitimately take it away from you without your consent.

If it is "illegal" and immoral for you or I to do those things, it is illegal and immoral for any group of people to do, regardless of who "elected" or hired them.

As for the NRA? Well, let's just say I'm not going to hold my breath.

[cassandrasdaddy]

I'm reminded of another "great idea" from some government officials. They thought it'd be a good idea to put the drug SWAT teams in ambulances so the drug dealers would not be alerted to their presence by the big van with "police" written on the side. Once the drug gangs figured this out then every ambulance became a bullet magnet. They had to stop the policy and announce publicly this policy change to keep ambulances from getting shot up.


really? where? when? source?



and "the satanic war on drugs" really? i wish i thought that was a joke but it was funny in a school bus full of kids on fire going over a cliff kinda way



and to quote her own lawyer emphasis mine
as far as we know without a warrant