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Thread: The Future of Liberty

  1. #201
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    It sounds good, Vern.

    But I don't think it will work. I don't think the root of the problem is the buildings, or the teaching staff, or the curriculum.

    It's too many people who don't think learning something is important. How do you fix that?

    I know some people who are trying. And it seems to help some people so their work is not entirely in vain.

    But whether it's under-achieving meth heads and pill poppers in caucasian Applachia, or under-achieving crack smokers in the big cities, well, I just don't know how you reach those folks.
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  2. #202
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    The root of the problem is in the system.

    Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production and distrbution, operated for profit in a competitive environment.

    Socialism is government ownership of the means of production and distrbution, operated for political reasons in a monoply environment.

    Which of those best describes the Public School system -- where the government owns the schools, desks, books, computers and so on, hires the teachers, sets the standards, and sucks up tax money, leaving parents unable to afford a competitive school?

    We need to open the system to competition. We also need to do a few other things -- for example, parents on welfare should have their checks adjusted downward if their children are skipping school, or failin.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Humphrey
    In other words, we should reward those schools which succeed, and not those which fail -- we should let them die.
    While competition is a laudable goal, it will always fall short as long as we have a large segment of the market being run by the government. The government has too much money invested in schools, and far too many entrenched interests, to actually close crappy schools when they can just throw more resources at them.

    I suspect there is also a fallacy in our belief that everyone wants the type of competition and choice that would be necessary to cause a drastic transformation of the educational system. While many parents would be delighted to be able to send their children to schools with higher educational standards, others would be equally happy to send their children to the most convenient schools or schools that provided more non-educational services. Just as people make choices between shopping at Macy's or WalMart, so would they make choices between schools - and not always based on wise reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Humphrey
    We need to open the system to competition. We also need to do a few other things -- for example, parents on welfare should have their checks adjusted downward if their children are skipping school, or failin.
    Bravo! This is a suggestion that would have a real impact; of course, that is also why it has nearly no prospect of being adopted. You can readily anticipate the wailing of "How can you possibly take money for food, clothing and shelter away from the rest of the family because of one troubled, uncontrollable child?"

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc70 View Post
    While competition is a laudable goal, it will always fall short as long as we have a large segment of the market being run by the government. The government has too much money invested in schools, and far too many entrenched interests, to actually close crappy schools when they can just throw more resources at them.
    Bingo!

    When you look for the solutions to problems in this country, you nearly always find the government is the cause, and hampers solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by gc70 View Post
    I suspect there is also a fallacy in our belief that everyone wants the type of competition and choice that would be necessary to cause a drastic transformation of the educational system. While many parents would be delighted to be able to send their children to schools with higher educational standards, others would be equally happy to send their children to the most convenient schools or schools that provided more non-educational services. Just as people make choices between shopping at Macy's or WalMart, so would they make choices between schools - and not always based on wise reasons.
    But that's what choice is all about!

    Understand that freedom of choice in anything, from freedom to choose your spouse, to freedom to choose your investments, includes freedom to fail. That is an essential part of any free system.

    When we give up the possibility of failure, we kill freedom of choice, and kill liberty. We wind up with something like the Public School system, where there is little or no choice -- and damn' little success.

    Quote Originally Posted by gc70 View Post

    Bravo! This is a suggestion that would have a real impact; of course, that is also why it has nearly no prospect of being adopted. You can readily anticipate the wailing of "How can you possibly take money for food, clothing and shelter away from the rest of the family because of one troubled, uncontrollable child?"
    Actually, we are slowly coming to realize the effects of this sham -- in order to protect one child, we condemn many to a life of poverty. One way we did that was constantly increasing the welfare payments as more and more children were born out of wedlock. We're now undertanding the evils that did and have put some controls on it.

    The same dynamics must be applied to education.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Humphrey View Post
    The root of the problem is in the system.

    Capitalism ....Socialism .....

    We also need to do a few other things -- for example, parents on welfare should have their checks adjusted downward if their children are skipping school, or failin.
    Well, we disagree. I think the root of the problem is wide-spread denial of personal responsibility -- by people for their own children first and most important. And most of those children aren't on welfare, I have seen plenty of examples in upper middle class families and systems with virtually no welfare recipients.

    Secondly, for the level of education provided by the system the community funds. All those administrators and teachers have been hired by somebody. 100 years ago, if a school was doing poorly, some leading citizens would see to it that people were replaced. Even 30 years ago, in the small communities I have mostly lived in.

    Did all our citizens magically lose their sand? Yeah, you can cite the huge bureaucracies like Chicago and Cleveland. But there's a whole country out there.

    Vern, are the schools lousy in your town? I bet not. I bet you, and fellow citizens like you, wouldn't stand for lousy. They maybe aren't as good as you like, but lousy would be too much for you to stand, I think.

    I won't debate you on the merits of choice and competition in improving a product -- it's a good thing in a system large enough to stand it, like a big city. But how do you sustain competing school systems in small towns and counties with 50 or 100 people in a class year? Can that model work? (50 years ago in Northern Ohio there were numerous school mergers because schools that size became economically untenable....)

    The schools are responsible for teaching. Parents are responsible for parenting.... but poor parents are not punished, the kid is. I have no good suggestions at the moment for how to fix that.
    Paul
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmeisel View Post
    Well, we disagree. I think the root of the problem is wide-spread denial of personal responsibility -- by people for their own children first and most important. And most of those children aren't on welfare, I have seen plenty of examples in upper middle class families and systems with virtually no welfare recipients.
    So why would you object to holding parents responsible for their children?

    If the parents are on welfare, they are poor and statistics show their children are highly likely to grow up poor and live on welfare, and their grandchildren, and so on.

    By using the welfare check to get the parents to care, and make sure their children attend school and make good grades we have a method of breaking that cycle.
    Quote Originally Posted by pmeisel View Post
    Secondly, for the level of education provided by the system the community funds. All those administrators and teachers have been hired by somebody. 100 years ago, if a school was doing poorly, some leading citizens would see to it that people were replaced. Even 30 years ago, in the small communities I have mostly lived in.

    Did all our citizens magically lose their sand? Yeah, you can cite the huge bureaucracies like Chicago and Cleveland. But there's a whole country out there.
    No, the unions and bureaucrats took over, and changed the mission. The mission is no longer to educate the children, it is to provide jobs for members of the Teachers' Unions.

    Quote Originally Posted by pmeisel View Post
    Vern, are the schools lousy in your town? I bet not. I bet you, and fellow citizens like you, wouldn't stand for lousy. They maybe aren't as good as you like, but lousy would be too much for you to stand, I think.
    Our schools are not as bad as many others, but not nearly good enough to justify what we spend on them. Arkansas spends $9,000 per pupil per year -- a high school graduate costs $108,00.
    Quote Originally Posted by pmeisel View Post
    I won't debate you on the merits of choice and competition in improving a product -- it's a good thing in a system large enough to stand it, like a big city. But how do you sustain competing school systems in small towns and counties with 50 or 100 people in a class year? Can that model work? (50 years ago in Northern Ohio there were numerous school mergers because schools that size became economically untenable....)
    The answer is simple -- if there aren't enough students to sustain competing systems, the bad systems die quicker. If the winning systems start failing, competitors appear and drive them out of business.
    Quote Originally Posted by pmeisel View Post
    The schools are responsible for teaching. Parents are responsible for parenting.... but poor parents are not punished, the kid is. I have no good suggestions at the moment for how to fix that.
    That's why I recommend parents on Welfare be held responsibile for their childrens' performance.

  7. #207
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    I think the root of the problem is wide-spread denial of personal responsibility
    Common in the developed world, and very common in the US, I'm afraid. People've been going about this for years.. I remember reading the exact same phrase from a teacher turned writer in a foreword to a short story written 25 years ago..

    Teachers likely have it tougher these days.. they're expected not only to teach but also to instill discipline and manners- something which busy parents often don't have the time or inclination to do.


    Going to get even worse, with increasing prevalence of narcissism ..

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanius View Post
    Common in the developed world, and very common in the US, I'm afraid. People've been going about this for years.. I remember reading the exact same phrase from a teacher turned writer in a foreword to a short story written 25 years ago..

    Teachers likely have it tougher these days.. they're expected not only to teach but also to instill discipline and manners- something which busy parents often don't have the time or inclination to do.


    Going to get even worse, with increasing prevalence of narcissism ..
    Worse? I hope not.

    You are spot on with the parents, not sure if people who should not be having kids(thank the welfare state for rewarding them) should have them in such great numbers.

    It could also be that smart,responsible,forthinking hard working people cant afford to have alot of kids so they are being out bred,to add the fact they are being forced to work 8,10,12 a day to just get by.

    Not the add on the fact that the mom has to work full time, so their kids are out of their watch and care, which always leads to great things happening.

    The failure of Education has a great deal to do with how bad things are in America, factor in political correctness from telling people to quiting being morons, we can be back to where we should be in way of pride and national culture, but we need to go fast and hard, stop caring what liberal/collectvist say,think,and care, combat them when theystep out of line or get in our way,
    Last edited by bunkerguy; November 28th, 2012 at 09:09 PM.

  9. #209
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    So why would you object to holding parents responsible for their children?
    I don't object. I have observed that it isn't instant pudding, though -- you can sometimes coerce attendance, but not necessarily attention or effort.

    And few of the cases I have observed have anything to do with welfare, not in that economic category. Not "working poor" either. People with jobs, but no respect for the need to learn.

    Our schools are not as bad as many others, but not nearly good enough to justify what we spend on them. Arkansas spends $9,000 per pupil per year
    That is too much money IMO. I haven't been in the details for a few years but the numbers I am familiar with were much lower.
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by pmeisel View Post
    I don't object. I have observed that it isn't instant pudding, though -- you can sometimes coerce attendance, but not necessarily attention or effort.

    And few of the cases I have observed have anything to do with welfare, not in that economic category. Not "working poor" either. People with jobs, but no respect for the need to learn.



    That is too much money IMO. I haven't been in the details for a few years but the numbers I am familiar with were much lower.
    The respect and will to learn is the path to wealth and freedom if we teach kids this at a very young age and show them so real world explains they will follow it. When i was young I had observed at a young age the being informed, educated, and having common sense is the path to wealth and freedom, while laziness and stupidity are a slide down the path of poverty.

    and you are dead on with the spending of too much money, just because you spend 8,000,9,000 or 12,000 does not mean you are getting that,

    “There is cost and there is value don't confuse the two”

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmeisel View Post
    I don't object. I have observed that it isn't instant pudding, though -- you can sometimes coerce attendance, but not necessarily attention or effort.
    The proposal holds parents on welfare responsible for their children's performance as well as attendence.

  12. #212
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    You know it's funny. My dad who was on ssd [and not much of it] from three heart attacks took mom's survivor benefits check and that paid the tuition for a good private school for me for three years.
    He expected me to average at least a 85 in grades every year.

    Parents and most importantly the student has to care. I don't meet too many people that like learning just for the fun of learning and acquiring new knowledge and skills.

    And there's no excuse nowadays. We have cheap computers and free internet in lots of areas of the country.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by captlid View Post
    I don't meet too many people that like learning just for the fun of learning and acquiring new knowledge and skills.
    I'll bet good gold dollars against a politician's promise the one's you did meet had parents that took joy in learning as well. If you can teach a small child to enjoy reading, I mean really enjoy it. The joy of learning will follow. Get parents and teachers in the early grades that are more concern with deportment than reading skills...

  14. #214
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    OK. So if the kid just don't give a damn, we'll save some money on the welfare budget.

    That won't fix the kid whose parents are working, and he doesn't give a damn. There a lot of them. Probably a lot more that the ones on welfare.
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

  15. #215
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    I have a small business, when there was a conflict with an accountant, it turned out that I could not perform these tasks myself. I contacted the firm https://osome.com/uk/bookkeeping-services/ for UK bookkeeping services, a friend advised. At the end of the work, they saved me and put everything in order. I was satisfied.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapoka View Post
    I have a small business, when there was a conflict with an accountant
    It is just because nobody is running business like that any longer. All services like this are outsourced. Even marketing is outsourced. Plus you seem unaware of modern business tendencies at all. Do you have Twitch account yet? If not, try to buy twitch followers and grow your audience. There is no successful business without a good account in social media.

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