The Future of Liberty

[pmeisel]

Spending is out of control in the US due to the medical pricing models (cost plus, what do I want to make) and the absence of any effective pricing competition and control in most circumstance.

Find out how many of those dots to the left are single payer or socialized medicine systems.... lots and lots I think. Fastest way to save money. Doctors and hospital administrators hate that -- it causes them work and problems and more accountability.

[KodiakBeer]

I suspect it's more complex than that. Doctors in say, the UK, are effectively government employees on a fixed salary with fixed rates for specialized services. They don't have to carry private malpractice insurance. They don't have to order unnecessary tests, procedures, exams, to protect themselves from predatory lawyers.

In the UK, if you twist your knee playing handball, the doctor is going to hand you an ace wrap and some Motrin and tell you to come back in a month if it isn't better. In the US, you may find yourself with a referral to an orthopedic specialist at $500 a visit and perhaps another 2K bill for a Cat Scan, just so he doesn't get sued later for the pain, emotional trauma, loss of work, loss of self-esteem, decreased sexual function and general bitchiness associated with not having your torn ACL worked on immediately.

[Zipperhead]

Find out how many of those dots to the left are single payer or socialized medicine systems.... lots and lots I think. Fastest way to save money. Doctors and hospital administrators hate that -- it causes them work and problems and more accountability.

Yeah, right.
I can tell you one doctor for sure that will leave the profession if ACA is not repealed before 2014. Mine.

Also, my brother that is a registered nurse will leave the profession the first time the gov't puts a limit on how much he can earn per hour.

One thing for sure. Government imposed price controls don't work. They never have, they never will. Impose a price control on ANYTHING and you will create a shortage of it. Guaranteed.

Want to control HC costs? Get government out of it and make frivolous lawsuits expensive, say loser pays? Or even limit tort lawsuit amounts. Put a cap on 'em. - Good luck with that when the lawyers are writing the laws. Talk about letting the fox watch the hen house!

Just my two cents.

Zip

[Zipperhead]

Doctors in say, the UK, are effectively government employees on a fixed salary with fixed rates for specialized services.

Now THAT'S the way to get the best and brightest into the system!

Zip

[pmeisel]

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tradition-...odel-care.html

The Mayo Clinic is doing it. So is the Cleveland Clinic. Two of the more advanced health care institutions in the country.

I think it's the way to go. Most doctors I know are lousy businessmen, anyway. You can only concentrate on being good at so many things, and I'd rather my doc be good at getting me healthy and letting someone else manage his financial well being.

[Zipperhead]

Yeah, well, the Mayo Clinic is a teaching clinic and is one of the best known, most prestigious clinics in the world and has been since the 1950's and before.

For the purposes of full disclosure, I have personal current experience with Mayo Clinic, AZ. - My wife is a current patient.

Mayo Clinic DOES NOT and CANNOT accept new Medicare or MedicAid patients that utilize MAP (MediCare/MedicAid Advantage Program) insurance policies or supplemental insurance policies. This is a direct result of Obama Care. Don't just take my word for it. Call Mayo Clinic and ask them for yourself.

Obama Care was never about health care or cost control. It was always about control. Once the government has control of your health care, they have total and complete control of YOU, the individual.

Zip

[Paul47]

It's not as easy to start a small business now as it was 40 years ago. But it's not impossible, and if you are smart about it you can make money. The people I know who complain the loudest aren't good business people. The good business people I know quietly deal with it, make money, and are gracious about their success.

Well, this is exactly the point. For every wildly successful Apple, Inc or Nike, there are thousands of marginal mom and pop businesses that employ a lot of people, just scraping along. Without all the regulations and interference, they would make it. With the regulations, these businesses no longer make sense and they fold up shop.

It's not just a matter of less productive businesses being replaced by more productive ones (although that also continues to happen). It's also that the overall level of business activity is depressed. The only growth is in government employment and in the "zombie" (parasite) class.

[KodiakBeer]

I'd rather my doc be good at getting me healthy and letting someone else manage his financial well being.

How about the government steps in and manages your income for your "well being?"

We may not be far from this. Obama wants to raise the Capital Gains tax to 43%. What happens to the IRA's of all those who had hoped to retire and live above the poverty level when that happens?

[Vern Humphrey]

I'd rather my doc be good at getting me healthy and letting someone else manage his financial well being.

Men who are good enough to get through medical school can mostly add and subtract. When the government takes over their "financial well being" and drives their income down, they tend to look for more remunerative employment in another field.

[Zipperhead]

How about the government steps in and manages your income for your "well being?"

We may not be far from this. Obama wants to raise the Capital Gains tax to 43%. What happens to the IRA's of all those who had hoped to retire and live above the poverty level when that happens?

Well, KB, I can tell you for sure that I will not be able to retire - EVER - if that happens. I have 2 very modest IRA's and there is no way I could/would be able to retire at that tax rate. It is my understanding this rate will also apply to dividend income as well.

Best way in the world to screw the seniors and Baby Boomer generation.

JMHO.

Zip

[KodiakBeer]

Obama's 2013 budget contains a provision to triple the tax on capital gains and dividends. If this gets through, say goodbye to your dreams of retirement. Of course, the flip side to that is we can also say goodbye to a lot of jobs because what fool would invest his money at such a tax rate?

[pmeisel]

can mostly add and subtract.

If that's all it was, all elementary school teachers would be good at business too.

[Zipperhead]

Obama's 2013 budget contains a provision to triple the tax on capital gains and dividends. If this gets through, say goodbye to your dreams of retirement. Of course, the flip side to that is we can also say goodbye to a lot of jobs because what fool would invest his money at such a tax rate?

Nobody. They'll take it offshore.

Zip

[Selena]

If that's all it was, all elementary school teachers would be good at business too.

I know a couple that would be disqualified by those skills.

[captlid]

Obama's 2013 budget contains a provision to triple the tax on capital gains and dividends. If this gets through, say goodbye to your dreams of retirement. Of course, the flip side to that is we can also say goodbye to a lot of jobs because what fool would invest his money at such a tax rate?

Triple the tax on dividends? They are already too high!!!

Well I guess over half the country doesn't want investment friendly policies.

Why do people think only the fat cats take advantage of dividends? I would love to invest more in DRIPS but at this point it makes no sense to.

Part time retail workers get access to their corporation's stock programs too. I wish I took advantage of that when younger even on a 10 buck an hour wage.

[Vern Humphrey]

Triple the tax on dividends? They are already too high!!!

Well I guess over half the country doesn't want investment friendly policies.

Why do people think only the fat cats take advantage of dividends? I would love to invest more in DRIPS but at this point it makes no sense to.

Part time retail workers get access to their corporation's stock programs too. I wish I took advantage of that when younger even on a 10 buck an hour wage.

This is smoke and mirrors with a vengence -- they distract us by claiming to tax the rich. But if we took everything the rich have, we'd hardly make a dent in the deficit. It's the middle class that pays the taxes, always has, always will. Every tax scheme is directed at us.

[KodiakBeer]

This is smoke and mirrors with a vengence -- they distract us by claiming to tax the rich. But if we took everything the rich have, we'd hardly make a dent in the deficit. It's the middle class that pays the taxes, always has, always will. Every tax scheme is directed at us.

All wealth (ALL of it) is generated when an individual buys a product or service. The profit generated through that sale may circulate through a hundred hands but its origin can be traced back to somebody buying a widget or having their widget serviced. Tax a rich doctor and he shifts that cost to his patients. Tax an oil company and the cost is shifted to the price of gas at the pumps.

There is no such thing as "taxing the rich" because all taxes in a capitalist society fall on the consumer, eventually.

[Vern Humphrey]

All wealth (ALL of it) is generated when an individual buys a product or service. The profit generated through that sale may circulate through a hundred hands but its origin can be traced back to somebody buying a widget or having their widget serviced. Tax a rich doctor and he shifts that cost to his patients. Tax an oil company and the cost is shifted to the price of gas at the pumps.

There is no such thing as "taxing the rich" because all taxes in a capitalist society fall on the consumer, eventually.

Absolutely correct.

The Parable Of The Boys Who Robbed The Farm.

Two boys were robbing a farm. The farmer caught them and tied them up in the barn.

He dragged one boy outside and said, "You were stealing grapes!!" He pulled the boy's pants down and started shoving grapes where you should never shove grapes. The boy began laughing.

"What are you laughing at? Doesn't this hurt?"

The boy said, "Well, yeah, it hurts. But the other guy was stealing watermelons!"

This is the theory of the Politics of Envy -- we will laugh when the government pushes grapes up our exhaust pipe, if we think someone else is going to get watermelons.

[Zipperhead]

All wealth (ALL of it) is generated when an individual buys a product or service. The profit generated through that sale may circulate through a hundred hands but its origin can be traced back to somebody buying a widget or having their widget serviced. Tax a rich doctor and he shifts that cost to his patients. Tax an oil company and the cost is shifted to the price of gas at the pumps.

There is no such thing as "taxing the rich" because all taxes in a capitalist society fall on the consumer, eventually.

Not only is it absolutely correct as Vern Humphrey says, but it is also exactly why tax cuts are good for everyone in our economy and why they necessarily stimulate the economy. Put more money in people's hands and they will make use of it. When money is kept in circulation, it creates demand. Demand creates jobs, jobs create more wealth, more wealth creates more money in circulation...... And the cycle would endlessly repeat itself if government would GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!

Just my most humble opinion, of course.

Zip

[Selena]

All wealth (ALL of it) is generated when an individual buys a product or service. The profit generated through that sale may circulate through a hundred hands but its origin can be traced back to somebody buying a widget or having their widget serviced. Tax a rich doctor and he shifts that cost to his patients. Tax an oil company and the cost is shifted to the price of gas at the pumps.

There is no such thing as "taxing the rich" because all taxes in a capitalist society fall on the consumer, eventually.

Hi Kodiak,

Capital, not wealth. There is a difference. Some taxes are necessary to fund government services and public infrastructure. Unfortunately our government started exceeding "some" back in ancient times.

[KodiakBeer]

I don't see any difference between the terms capital and wealth.

Nor do I see taxes as the automatic solution for the building and maintenance of infrastructure. I'd be quite happy with user fees for most things.
Why should I pay for a park I don't use or a school now that my children are grown? I'd happily pay the added school costs when I actually needed it, if I knew I didn't have to pay in my eventual retirement when I'm living on a fixed income and my children are long gone.

In some cases, roads for example, the heavy users like truckers would pass the cost along in the higher cost of transportation that I'd eventually pay when I bought goods. I'd be fine with that.

Most taxes are the "Tyranny of the Majority" that the founders warned us about.

[Selena]

I don't see any difference between the terms capital and wealth.

Nor do I see taxes as the automatic solution for the building and maintenance of infrastructure. I'd be quite happy with user fees for most things.
Why should I pay for a park I don't use or a school now that my children are grown? I'd happily pay the added school costs when I actually needed it, if I knew I didn't have to pay in my eventual retirement when I'm living on a fixed income and my children are long gone.

In some cases, roads for example, the heavy users like truckers would pass the cost along in the higher cost of transportation that I'd eventually pay when I bought goods. I'd be fine with that.

Most taxes are the "Tyranny of the Majority" that the founders warned us about.

When my ancestors dug the private ditch on this land that drained the swamp there was no money brought in or paid out. Yet that ditch drained swampland into productive farmland creating wealth. The capital i.e. land was already there all that changed was the surface water. Yet it's value multiplied from the 2 cents an acre he paid the Union for the land to nearly 15 cents an acre. Yet no money changed hands, nothing was bought and nothing was sold. There is a difference large between wealth and capital although capital can represent wealth.

[KodiakBeer]

Would you agree that a government that prohibited you from draining a swamp (a protected wetland...) wasn't also robbing you of potential wealth?

You can invest your dollars in a sound stock and see your wealth grow. You can drain a swamp or improve your home and see its value (your wealth) grow. Sweat equity is still equity. Assets are assets. Capital is wealth.

[Selena]

Would you agree that a government that prohibited you from draining a swamp (a protected wetland...) wasn't also robbing you of potential wealth?

You can invest your dollars in a sound stock and see your wealth grow. You can drain a swamp or improve your home and see its value (your wealth) grow. Sweat equity is still equity. Assets are assets. Capital is wealth.

Not the point, you claimed all wealth was generated from buying and selling. It is not. Due to the danger of ranting, not to mention intemperate language, I will not comment on wetlands "protection", sodbuster or adverse possession.

[Zipperhead]

I don't see any difference between the terms capital and wealth.

Nor do I see taxes as the automatic solution for the building and maintenance of infrastructure. I'd be quite happy with user fees for most things.
Why should I pay for a park I don't use or a school now that my children are grown? I'd happily pay the added school costs when I actually needed it, if I knew I didn't have to pay in my eventual retirement when I'm living on a fixed income and my children are long gone.

In some cases, roads for example, the heavy users like truckers would pass the cost along in the higher cost of transportation that I'd eventually pay when I bought goods. I'd be fine with that.

Most taxes are the "Tyranny of the Majority" that the founders warned us about.

Unfortunately, KB, you are not able to think like a true bureaucrat. You have to think in layers.
You pay for roads, at least partially, out of the general fund that is accumulated from various taxes (income taxes, tarrifs, etc.). Then you place a $0.25 per gallon gallon fuel tax to pay for the roads. The trucker that brings the fuel to the station where you fill your tank pays $0.35 per gallon to transport the fuel you buy. He passes that on to the retailer who passes it on to you. You have to buy tires for your car, too, so you have to pay the excise taxes on the tires to help pay for the roads. And on, and on, and on, and on..... These taxes do not go away when they build a toll road or a toll bridge.
That's how the bureaucrats and politicians think. "We'll just add this little tax in here, that little fee in there and....." And before you know it you're paying 50% of your income in taxes.

As for paying for schools: I think we should pay for our children's and grand children's and great-grand children's schools until the day we die. I say that with all seriousness because education is not something that we can live without. Think about it. The people that will be taking care of you in a nursing home or assisted living facility are, in all probability, going to be educated by the/your public school system. Short changing those folks on educational funding is not in your (or my) best interest. Education is the one thing I believe we all must participate in. Now, don't get me wrong here, I don't mean that we just hand the gov't or teachers' union a blank check! I am 100% for accountability and transparency. I just think it is all of our obligations to see that education is adequately funded and effectively teaching our young people.

Sorry so long winded.

Zip