Soliciting suggestions for home defense and .22 handguns

[erictank]

So, my wife and stepkids completed the NRA Basic Pistol course just over a month ago, and all three did pretty well with it. Somewhat surprisingly, all three expressed a fair amount of interest in continued practice. David's not going to have any problems using my 1911 - he's nearly as tall as I am, and his hands are just a touch smaller than mine, so he can comfortably hold the .45. My wife Lori and stepdaughter Alison both have considerably smaller and weaker hands than David or myself, and have said that they'd prefer something smaller and lighter than the 1911 for regular practice.

Lori has come to the conclusion that she'd prefer a revolver for "her gun", as she believes it will be easier to operate than the semi-auto 1911. I'm leaning towards a moderate or light .38+P/.357Mag revolver (loaded with .38Spl for practice and probably .38+P for defense), but have always preferred semiautos myself so I don't have a good feel for what might be a good choice to start looking at. She's 5'5" and not terribly strong, with small hands, and has difficulty properly manipulating the controls on my 1911. She had trouble with the slide, for example, and thinks the 1911 is too heavy for her to use outside of emergency.

Alison is highly unlikely to have to use either my 1911 or Lori's revolver, although she'll likely do at least a little practice with Lori's revolver once we get it, against the possibility that she'll need to use it. She's about 5'6", a little stronger than her mom thanks to better exercise habits but very slender and with very small hands - she also had trouble manipulating the 1911's slide, come to think of it. For her range use (and probably to be used by the rest of us as well), I'm thinking a .22LR of some kind, either revolver or semi-auto. Probably leaning towards revolver, actually, as David can use my Colt and can practice with that (or with a .22LR upper on the Colt frame), so something Lori and Alison can use to practice that's similar in function to the larger-caliber defensive revolver would likely be good.

There's no real rush on this - it will be some time before I can afford to buy one additional pistol, let alone two, and I'll need another pistol safe - but starting to get info early can't do anything but help. I'd obviously prefer to keep price down to the extent possible, without dipping into Lorcin territory, say.

[swgunner]

You can find (no guarantees though) police or security .38 trade-ins for around $350, plus a 1911 .22 conversion for another $300, and you have two nice guns for the price of 1 M&P/SIG/etc.

[SMMAssociates]

Eric:

Run, do not walk, from .22's as SD rounds....

They're easy to shoot, and can be a lot of fun, but the rimfire ammunition just doesn't seem to be reliable enough, and while you can indeed ruin somebody's day with a .22, when you're using a firearm to STOP somebody, it may take an undesirable length of time.

(Not that it's possible to have a BG keep on coming regardless of what you hit him with, but the odds in your favor improve as the caliber increases....)

My own recommendation depends on whether you're going to carry the gun, or just leave it someplace handy.

For the latter, if you want a revolver, there are a lot of Police pullout guns in .38 and .357 - 4" barrel guns that Officers were wearing until somebody decided that a semi-auto might be a better choice. These can be had somewhat inexpensively.

If you're going to carry the revolver, a steel-framed J-frame revolver with a 2" barrel in .38SPL is probably the best choice for a revolver. S&W, IMHO, is the best, but Ruger's got one, too....

IMHO, too, avoid the +P loads and all .357's. (Not that you can't fire .38's in a .357 gun.) For SD use, absent heavy clothing, a JHP will do the job, and you won't wonder where your hand went after the first shot. If heavy clothing is a concern, there are some plastic-tipped JHP's out there that'll do fairly well. The hotter stuff is just bragging rights.

(The biggest reason, IMHO, for the somewhat lighter loads is that you will practice with them, and they're not all that painful in any of the steel guns, 4" or 2". Reason #2: If you need a second shot, getting the .38 back on target quickly will be a LOT easier.)

If you're into semi's, Glock (I have to admit that I don't like them) and S&W M&P series guns are around. You can usually find Glock Police pullouts at very good prices. Fewer M&P's. Avoid the S&W Sigma or SD series guns. Crappy triggers.... Reliability should be good. My preference is a .40 or .45, but a good 9mm SD load will work for you - just plan on a second shot....

A quick story: A buddy of mine picked up a Ruger 4" .357 revolver ("SP101"? Generally about the same size as the S&W K-frame, like my Model 10HB.) He had a lot of experience with semi's, but really had never shot a .38 except for a couple rounds through one of mine. He grabbed a box of .38's, and hit the range. That's when he noticed the extremely long (by his standards) .38Spl case. Mike figured that he was in for a very nasty experience, and sort of prayed and shot the first round with his eyes closed. Poooof....

A .38Spl range load in a gun that size is pretty much like a .22.... But you don't want to be on the other end of one of those....

The S&W M10's ("K frame"; I have an Heavy Barrel version) were the standard Police Service gun for decades, and they turn up on the market as pullouts all the time. They're about as big as a 1911, although a bit lighter, but are solid, and trustworthy. BUT, take a knowledgeable friend along to verify the quality if you're into any kind of used gun and not experienced enough to evaluate it yourself.

Regards,

[TallPine]

A quick story: A buddy of mine picked up a Ruger 4" .357 revolver ("SP101"? Generally about the same size as the S&W K-frame, like my Model 10HB.)

That would probably be one of the Security Six family (no longer made).

Great guns!

That long case acually seems to make the recoil less snappy than for instance a 9 mm.

The only problem with DA revolvers is some folks hands aren't strong enough for the heavy trigger pull, though you can always (unless the hammer is bobbed) fire them single action.

[Combat Diver]

You may want to look at Smiths new M&P 22LR pistol MSRP $429 or Rugers new SR22 auto MSPR $399. Browning does have the scaled down 1911 in .22LR but its quite higher in price. Several used police Smith 5906/6906s still floating around for less then $400.

Have you considered a used 20 ga pump shotgun? You can usually find those for $200-300 at a pawn shop. A 22LR semi auto rifle would also be more effective and easier to shoot than a handgun. Those hollowpoints would then open up at least. One last option would be to consider a .22WMR chambered gun. Report would increase but so would velocity/effectivness.


CD

[Old Grump]

Dinosaur opinion here, get everybody a 22 and as much ammo as you can afford for it and hit the range as often as you can and as regularly as you can. It really doesn't matter if you get all get a pistol or a revolver or the same brand and style, the same principles apply to any handgun, grip breath, sight and trigger control. Shoot till its so automatic that you don't think about it.

Somewhere during all your shooting you will make friends of other shooters and be exposed to a large variety of calibers brands and styles. Shooters just like to shoot other shooters guns compare experiences and share their guns and stories about them. You will have plenty of time to decide which one you like the best and fits your needs.

Our opinions or our favorite toys really don't mean squat because we can't see you shoot and none of us know how a particular gun is going to fit your family's hand or which one will have that smile factor for any particular family member. Do not rush into it just to get a gun, go slow and do it right but start small, a 22 is literally the best teaching aid you can get and 40 years from now you will still be enjoying it no matter how many other guns you get in major calibers.

[bigfatdave]

Old Grump is right, on all counts.

[bellyfat]

Run, do not walk, from .22's as SD rounds....

They're easy to shoot, and can be a lot of fun, but the rimfire ammunition just doesn't seem to be reliable enough, and while you can indeed ruin somebody's day with a .22, when you're using a firearm to STOP somebody, it may take an undesirable length of time.

(Not that it's possible to have a BG keep on coming regardless of what you hit him with, but the odds in your favor improve as the caliber increases....)

My own recommendation depends on whether you're going to carry the gun, or just leave it someplace handy.

For the latter, if you want a revolver, there are a lot of Police pullout guns in .38 and .357 - 4" barrel guns that Officers were wearing until somebody decided that a semi-auto might be a better choice. These can be had somewhat inexpensively.

If you're going to carry the revolver, a steel-framed J-frame revolver with a 2" barrel in .38SPL is probably the best choice for a revolver. S&W, IMHO, is the best, but Ruger's got one, too....

IMHO, too, avoid the +P loads and all .357's. (Not that you can't fire .38's in a .357 gun.) For SD use, absent heavy clothing, a JHP will do the job, and you won't wonder where your hand went after the first shot. If heavy clothing is a concern, there are some plastic-tipped JHP's out there that'll do fairly well. The hotter stuff is just bragging rights.

(The biggest reason, IMHO, for the somewhat lighter loads is that you will practice with them, and they're not all that painful in any of the steel guns, 4" or 2". Reason #2: If you need a second shot, getting the .38 back on target quickly will be a LOT easier.)

If you're into semi's, Glock (I have to admit that I don't like them) and S&W M&P series guns are around. You can usually find Glock Police pullouts at very good prices. Fewer M&P's. Avoid the S&W Sigma or SD series guns. Crappy triggers.... Reliability should be good. My preference is a .40 or .45, but a good 9mm SD load will work for you - just plan on a second shot....

A quick story: A buddy of mine picked up a Ruger 4" .357 revolver ("SP101"? Generally about the same size as the S&W K-frame, like my Model 10HB.) He had a lot of experience with semi's, but really had never shot a .38 except for a couple rounds through one of mine. He grabbed a box of .38's, and hit the range. That's when he noticed the extremely long (by his standards) .38Spl case. Mike figured that he was in for a very nasty experience, and sort of prayed and shot the first round with his eyes closed. Poooof....

A .38Spl range load in a gun that size is pretty much like a .22.... But you don't want to be on the other end of one of those....

The S&W M10's ("K frame"; I have an Heavy Barrel version) were the standard Police Service gun for decades, and they turn up on the market as pullouts all the time. They're about as big as a 1911, although a bit lighter, but are solid, and trustworthy. BUT, take a knowledgeable friend along to verify the quality if you're into any kind of used gun and not experienced enough to evaluate it yourself.

Regards,[/QUOTE]

[Pfletch83]

Well from a cost aspect you could go with a long gun as far as price and standardization (say like the Mossberg .410 pump actions Model series 500-510)

They are easier to pick up than a handgun,Which is still an option later on when everyone can afford to buy what they want and what fits their hand best (in the case of the kids)

Shotguns are as good a defensive arm as any with the right ammunition and choke.

Plus the .410 can be used by anyone in the household that can shoulder a long gun.

[Selena]

Run, do not walk, from .22's as SD rounds....

They're easy to shoot, and can be a lot of fun, but the rimfire ammunition just doesn't seem to be reliable enough, and while you can indeed ruin somebody's day with a .22, when you're using a firearm to STOP somebody, it may take an undesirable length of time.

While a good solid hit from a .45 or a 9mm is more effective than a .22. That flavor in the hands of someone that cannot reliably produce that solid hit might as well be setting off firecrackers. But if that person can get a reliable hit with the .22 then s/he would be far better off with that. There is far more benefit to a 22 ball in the brain than a 45 ball in the wall.

[armoredman]

Congrats on getting the family into shooting and self defense, well done!
If I may add my $.02, worth less than you paid for it.

1) Let your wife pick out her gun. Go to a rental range, and have her physically handle all kinds of different choices. Pick the couple that fit her best, and hit the range. Costly, but not as costly as taking that "used gun" hit trying to sell that fancy blaster you bought her that she refuses to shoot because it hurts. Take it from someone who went through 4 revolvers and 4 autos before I grabbed a clue and let her pick it out. She has been VERY happy with her CZ 2075 RAMI ever since then. I shudder ever time I think of the money I lost on those deals...

2) 22lr conversion kits are an option. For instance, a CZ75 PCR, excellent 9mm compact pistol works well with the CZ Kadet Kit 2, which replaces the slide and magazine to turn the pistol into a 22 for practice, with the same trigger pull and grip. I use the Kadet Kit on my CZ 75 P-01,(requires the additional purchase of a PCR slidestop for that model), for fun and training with my son and those few brave souls that ask for my help on the range. You can get the primary and the 22 for cheaper than buying two guns.

3) Don't forget to have fun!

4) I'd rather be missed by a .45 than shot by a .22. If 22lr is all they will use, or all the recoil they can stand, well, it beats the heck out of harsh language! I concur that they should use the 22lr as a stepping stone if possible, but if my wife refused to use anything but a 22lr, say due to her wrist problems, I would make sure she had the best one I could buy with the best high velocity hollow point ammo I could get. Maybe it's sub-optimal for defensive use, but screaming and yelling ranks even below that.

5) Have fun!

[Loosedhorse]

I'm leaning towards a moderate or light .38+P/.357Mag revolver (loaded with .38Spl for practice and probably .38+P for defense)...

eric--

I'm a big revolver fan but have lately moved away from my usual suggestion of a .357 revolver as the "beginner's" all-around gun (mild .38 WCs for target shooting and .38+P or .357 JHPs for SD) to .45 ACP revolvers.

Big revolvers aren't great for concealed carry, but other than that, a .45 ACP revolver has some big advantages: quick reloads, same choice of target and SD rounds as you'd get with .357/.38--and newbies often really like the one-clip/6 rounds/it's loaded or it isn't simplicity.

I do.

I like your idea of a .22 conversion unit for your .45 ACP Colt. If you want a .22 revolver, I think Ruger (SP101 or even LCR) is the answer--but consider the Smith 63.

[KodiakBeer]

I always tell new shooters to buy a .22 and shoot about 5 to 10k rounds before even thinking about what defense gun they want to buy.

The simple truth of the matter is that it takes a LOT of shooting to become proficient with a handgun. And... and it takes a lot of shooting to remain proficient with a handgun. If you have a .22 you will shoot more, simply because the ammo is so dirt cheap.

The skill is far more important than the brand/model/caliber of weapon you finally choose for your defense needs.

[CoastieGM]

I had the same dilemma picking out a "Women's and Children's" weapon for around the house. I ended up settling for a Ruger 10/22 carbine (short rifle). I didn't feel very comfortable leaving them with a .22, but my thought at the time was that it was sure better than nothing. Most importantly the wife and wee ones could handle it very well. If nothing else, they could spray a wall of .22 chunks of lead and scare the bejezus out of anyone.

Here's my experience if you're insisting upon a pistol:
I settled upon a .357 revolver and loaded it with regular .38 spl ammo. My wife (4' 10") can reacquire target for a follow-up shot in nothing flat. She cannot do so firing .357 rounds. My wife seemed to do best with a 4 inch barrel (and she really likes it). The little extra report from a 2 inch barrel rattled her.


Here's my experience if you're insisting upon a .22:
A short .22 rifle with a 25 round magazine (e.g. Ruger 10/22) is far more effective than a .22 pistol. That extra barrel length makes all the difference in the world. Yet a carbine is short enough to maneuver through a doorway just fine (should be taking up a defensive posture anyway).

Load it with 40 grain solid point ammo. Test various ammo and magazine combinations until you find a configuration that works every time. The kicker is that this entire setup can cost you less than $250, and it's quite effective.

We had a real-life situation where a home invader (armed with a 9mm pistol and a shank screwdriver) kicked in a back door and tried to kill my 16 year old son. My son dropped the bad guy dead as a doornail with a burst from the little Ruger 10/22. Seeing that dead guy on my floor in conjunction with what investigators imparted quickly made me rethink the effectiveness of .22LR.

A homicide detective indicated a .22 rifle shot to the chest cavity with solid point ammo is a pretty darn reliable and drops 'em fast. However, hollow points do not do the trick. Furthermore, they indicated that .22 pistols don't work nearly as fast as a .22 rifle. Can't say I've tested the latter...just what they told me.

Think of a self-defense weapon like underwear....boxers, briefs, thongs...everyone has a different idea of comfortable (to wear, that is). Get out and meet people who have guns and try out different things.

[erictank]

First, I want to thank all who've responded here so far - your input is appreciated.

Second, it looks to me as though there might have been a little miscommunication. The .22 I'm looking for is *NOT* intended as a home-defense firearm, though if nothing else is available, of course it would be used as such. The best gun for defense is the one you have, and all that. However, the .22's primary purpose in life would be for plinking and practice. If worse comes to worst and Alison or Lori needs a firearm to defend against a home invader, the larger-caliber revolver we'll be getting for Lori would probably be better for that, and we'll be taking pains to ensure it's something Lori's comfortable with and both are willing to practice with. I'll be discussing the possibility of a long gun of some kind with her for in-home defensive use - I'd like to build an AR, I think, and would enjoy having a 7.62 rifle as well - but at this time, I doubt she'd be receptive to the idea. Due to hand size, Alison and Lori will almost certainly be sharing "their" guns.

I'd like to get back into rifle shooting as well as handgun (he says, not having been to the range in the month since picking up Dad's 1911), and am idly contemplating trying 3-gun, which would mean getting a shotgun as well as a rifle-caliber carbine. That's for WAY down the road, though.

[Selena]

First, I want to thank all who've responded here so far - your input is appreciated.

Second, it looks to me as though there might have been a little miscommunication. The .22 I'm looking for is *NOT* intended as a home-defense firearm, though if nothing else is available, of course it would be used as such. The best gun for defense is the one you have, and all that. However, the .22's primary purpose in life would be for plinking and practice. If worse comes to worst and Alison or Lori needs a firearm to defend against a home invader, the larger-caliber revolver we'll be getting for Lori would probably be better for that, and we'll be taking pains to ensure it's something Lori's comfortable with and both are willing to practice with. I'll be discussing the possibility of a long gun of some kind with her for in-home defensive use - I'd like to build an AR, I think, and would enjoy having a 7.62 rifle as well - but at this time, I doubt she'd be receptive to the idea. Due to hand size, Alison and Lori will almost certainly be sharing "their" guns.

I'd like to get back into rifle shooting as well as handgun (he says, not having been to the range in the month since picking up Dad's 1911), and am idly contemplating trying 3-gun, which would mean getting a shotgun as well as a rifle-caliber carbine. That's for WAY down the road, though.

Hi Eric,

My brother claims that it would be easy to get a .22 'fit in conversion' for my Commander that would be good for practice. Since the Commander is essentially a cut down 1911 if you could find one in say 9mm and the fit in for .22 you may be able to do double duty.

Mine is a 38 Super that once decent grips were found can be fired without punishment to my small hands/long fingers. I doubt 9mm would be any different for your wife.

Another thing to consider is that SAIGA makes this cutest little .410 shotgun that even though it looks like a "monkey gun" is reliable and easy to shoot. The one I had was gentle enough on the shoulder that even in my drama queen stage gave me little to complain about. (Quiet JD!)

[Old Grump]

Small hands, assuming small stature, a junior version of a 20 gauge fitted with ghost rings or hi viz rifle sights would put your family up to speed quickly while they are training on their 22's. Something along the lines of one of these. They won't break the bank and are fun to shoot even for a big guy. A 12 gauge with reduced recoil ammo would also work.

[BothellBob]

...There's no real rush on this - it will be some time before I can afford to buy one additional pistol, let alone two, and I'll need another pistol safe - but starting to get info early can't do anything but help. I'd obviously prefer to keep price down to the extent possible, without dipping into Lorcin territory, say.

If you live near a good gun show, buying used can save a lot of money and is a better date than going to the movies. Something like an Iver Johnson Sealed-8, while no tack driver, is certainly acceptable as a plinker. I see them a couple of times a year for $100 or less, and $150 is common. They aren't S&W, but they are way above the potmetal junkers.
-BothellBob

[CIA_ran_9/11]

A heritage rough rider revolver and put in the .22 mag cylinder.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/i...dguns/Heritage