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Thread: An argument about CCW holders being safe and law abiding

  1. #1
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    An argument about CCW holders being safe and law abiding

    A friend challenged me that carry permit holders were untrained and dangerous. I thought that permit holders were more law abiding than LEOs. I can't find that statistic. Was I dreaming?

    I know where to find the statistic that permit holders shoot fewer bystanders than do the police. I can find the statistic that permit holders are more law abiding than the average citizen. How do permit holders compare to LEOs?
    Cogito, ergo armatum sum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loosedhorse View Post
    I can get you started.
    Jury is still out on this one. Please note this is a Gannet newspaper so it's accuracy is in question.

    Lafayette Indiana

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    Loosedhorse had some links for crime rates of cops v ccw.

    For those who missed crime rates ccw v other private citizens:

    The Texas Dept of Public Safety TDPS has kept stats on crimes by Texas Concealed Handgun License TCHL holders versus the general adult public.
    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl.../convrates.htm
    Conviction Rates

    The following reports represent the number of Concealed Handgun License (CHL) holders with convictions vs. the entire TX population with convictions. The Criminal History conviction data is not considered "final" until a year after the conviction. Each report is generated for the current year minus 2 years (ie. the 2006 Conviciton Rates Report was run in mid 2008 to allow for "final" conviction status on the 2006 Criminal History records). The delayed report generation timeline also gives the CHL Legal department time to revoke or deny CHL's after a "final" conviction has been reached and reported to CHL. Each report contains descriptive text regarding the data content.
    Years currently available are 2011 back to 1996.
    The 2011 report is http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL...Report2011.pdf


    When Tennessee Dept of Safety TDoS started the Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit THCP, the state elected not to keep such stats. However, I have taken local newspaper reports of gun crimes (assualts, etc.) or reckless use of guns (DUI w. loaded gun in car, etc.) and run the names and ages against the Memphis Commercial Appeal searchable database of THCP holders with no hits. My conclusion is THCP holders seldomn commit crimes with guns, and the people who commit crimes with guns don't need no permits.

    I believe the media have discovered one guy with a THCP involved in a bar fight (not a shooting) and are trying to portray that as typical of all permit holders.
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    I'm not sure where the statistic comes from but apparently more law enforcement officers are charged with crimes yearly that permit holders.

    I'm not sure if that's by percentage or by raw numbers though.
    It is your dissatisfaction with what IS that is the source of all of your unhappiness. Matthew Scudder

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    Thanks

    Thank you for your help. Now I have to grind the numbers.
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    untrained

    "Untrained" does not equal inexperienced.

    "Trained" does not equal experience either. But knowledge of self-defense laws of your state is essential.

    To get my Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit (concealed or open) I took 4 hour class on self defense law, 4 hour class on gun safety, and fired qualification score on the firing line to get certified as eligible. Then filed application for permit, with fingerprint cards to TBI and FBI for background check.

    Personally, I felt the gun safety and qualification were wasted on most of the people in the handgun permit class since most persons had owned guns for recreation or home defense for years before applying for a carry permit.

    Note the number of other state CCW laws that count military or police experience in place of formal safety training and range test. (Personally, being raised on hunting safety by an ex-military dad who grew up on a farm, I count weekends over years target practice on the mountain with dad and hunting with my uncle as teaching me more about gun safety and marksmanship than the military REMF training I got--3 classes on the M16, 10 sighter rounds, and 20 rounds each prone, sitting and standing for qualification.)

    The class on self-defense law is essential. [sarcasm] Everything Dick Wolfe teaches about vigilantism self-defense on "Law & Order" (and the news and entertainment media in general) is bull manure and ought to be bagged and sold at Tractor Supply Co. as fertilize.[/sarcasm]

    And as for dangerous: during the recent Empire State Building incident we had NYPD doing magazine dumps on crowded streets hitting nine citizens in addition to their target. During the alert on Chris Dorner, LAPD did multiple magazine dumps on a truck that vaguely resembled Dorner's truck and hit two middleaged ladies delivering newspapers. However the findings work out in the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Florida case, one thing is clear: Zimmerman fired one shot that ended the fight; if he had been NYPD or LAPD he would have done a magazine dump.
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    Compare the rates provided in the Violence Policy Center's diatribe against CCW permittees ('CCW Killers', or some nonsense like that - http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm) against the overall rates for whatever category/categories of violent crime for the general public available from the FBI. Last time I did so, a few years ago, you were on the close order of a magnitude of order less likely to be faced with threat of any violent crime at the hands of a permittee than from the "average person". And you certainly can't accuse the VPC of being biased in favor of the permittees!

    FL and TX, among others, have kept statistics on their permittees' crime rates since implementation of their shall-issue permit issuing policies. In those two cases, and all the others I've read but cannot dredge up at the moment, permittees have again proven to be substantially more law-abiding than the general run of folks. Comparisons vs. LEO's? Don't know that I've ever seen those.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl N. Brown View Post
    During the alert on Chris Dorner, LAPD did multiple magazine dumps on a truck that vaguely resembled Dorner's truck and hit two middleaged ladies delivering newspapers.
    In that it had 4 wheels, a bed and a motor?
    It is your dissatisfaction with what IS that is the source of all of your unhappiness. Matthew Scudder

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    All I know is that after I got my CCW I became a much better driver. No more loooong honking, no more "salutes," no more hollering out the window, no more racing to get in the exit lane ahead of the other driver.

    More "Sure, go ahead and cut in front of me" and "thank you" gestures.

    Maybe there's some truth to the famous Heinlein quote.

    You think?

    Respectfully submitted as anecdotal, if not "scientific" evidence,

    Terry, 230RN

    REF:
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...ahe100989.html
    "Gun control is not about public safety, crime reduction, or 'the children.' Gun control is about power. The people have it, and the government would rather they didn't." (An internet poster, not myself.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 230RN View Post
    All I know is that after I got my CCW I became a much better driver. No more loooong honking, no more "salutes," no more hollering out the window, no more racing to get in the exit lane ahead of the other driver.

    More "Sure, go ahead and cut in front of me" and "thank you" gestures.

    Maybe there's some truth to the famous Heinlein quote.

    You think?

    Respectfully submitted as anecdotal, if not "scientific" evidence,

    Terry, 230RN

    REF:
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...ahe100989.html

    I can go along with this. After I got my first CCW in 1989 at age 45 my whole attitude changed. On the highway. and just walking down the street or running on the beach.

    I have a atrocious temper as is obvious to all members of this forum ,but carrying a gun 24/7 changed me in public. It had a comforting,subduing affect which remains to this day.

    As Carl mentioned "Untrained" does not equal inexperienced.

    Florida does not require "training" if you produce a NRA instructor card, or DD214 or many other possible "escapes". My DD214 sufficed and it was 17 years old at the time.

    So, in my mind training is not needed, not to mention unconstitutional.So far we have 3 states,AK,AZ and VT getting things right. WY will join them when they let non residents carry concealed w/o a permit.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Should the question not be is requiring a permit not an infringement of our rights?

    BTW does anyone have any proof that a permit serves any useful purpose?

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    Red face

    Crimefree:

    Here in OH, a license is an official recognition of licensees completing the required, if minimal, training requirements of the State, or LE or Military (DD214) experience.

    A permit is permission from our masters. At least OH got that part right....

    Not the we don't have some insane restrictions, but it's getting better....

    Just IMHO, other than LAC's being turned into criminals by those insane restrictions, the number of licensees charged seems to be very small.

    Regards,
    Stu

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    Didn't catch this the first time I read the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post
    A friend challenged me that carry permit holders were untrained and dangerous. I thought that permit holders were more law abiding than LEOs. I can't find that statistic. Was I dreaming?
    Untrained and dangerous and law abiding are two completely different measures.

    You might as well say permit holders don't speak chinese but more of them go to church
    It is your dissatisfaction with what IS that is the source of all of your unhappiness. Matthew Scudder

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    Personally, the most valuable thing in the whole Tennessee certification of eligibility training was the four hours on self defense statutes and case law. The process though should not be as expensive as it was: $75 for training, $115 to process the permit.

    To opening post: one of the training organisations found in the first five years of shall-issue, out of tens of thousands of carry permits approved, no report of a permit holder harming an innocent bystander with a gun had been called to their attention.
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    Just an observation many will know to be true.

    The question has us running around trying to prove something while the gun control nut sits and laughs at us.

    Not only are we trying to convince gun controls belief with reason, logic and facts. We need to know that is a waste of time. How do you convince a belief with facts?

    Ask the guy what proof he has they are unsafe and where he got his information from. You can also say a CCW permit is simply unconstitutional appeasement of gun control hysteria.

    A belief requires an emotional response.

    And if you need back up on that read what the bill of rights affirms as our right and the instruction to government, What does "shall not be infringed" mean? OK if we can dream up some excuse? Why is this the only amendment to have that statement? Was somebody trying to tell us something?

    Then CDC examination of its own work, gun control laws and interventions.

    ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/publications/mmwr/rr/rr5214.pdf


    And

    The National Academy of Sciences.
    FIREARMS AND VIOLENCE, A CRITICAL REVIEW
    http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881

    These are things every firearm owners should know.

    What is the point of justifying CCW when it is a gun control law? Is that support for unjustified gun control?

  17. #17
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    Texas has maintained and published records of arrests of TCHL holders for years; concealed handgun license holders in Texas are least likely to be arrested for crimes than other adult Texans.

    I did for several months run the names of persons reported in the newpaper for gun crime or reckless gun use through the Memphis Commercial Appeal database of all Tennessee handgun carry permits (and verify by age, DOB). No gun crimes or reckless gun use reported committed by a handgun permit holder. I noticed a recent incident in the paper where the paper reported the suspect did not have a carry permit.

    A common statistic reported (originated with Gary Kleck's research I believe, but repeated by several sources) is that in the 1990s civilians in self-defense were responsible for 10 mistaken identity killings opposed to 300 by law enforcement per year. That's not carry permit holders (keeping a gun for self-defense in the home or place of business does not require a permit in Tennessee and that is true of many states with carry permit laws) and cops walk into situations where they don't know good guy from bad guy and make split second decisions, so that's an apple and oranges comparison.

    Off topic maybe, but I am surprised by reports of snap judgement shooting by LE in jurisdictions like NYC, Chicago and LA. Around here, an officer involved shooting routinely results in a state bureau of investigation review and presentation to the grand jury. LE shootings tend to be squeaky clean here, but things like those LA cops dumping mags on the newsladies during the Chris Dorner manhunt are just mind boggling to me.
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    Although I felt the training provided me by the USMC was more than adequate, the state of WV required me to take the NRA course to get my CWP when I moved here.

    I have to say the course was very good. I didn't learn anything I didn't already know, but the refresher was nice. We had a mix in the course of experienced shooters (3 or 4), a couple people who shot many years ago and were getting back into it, and several complete newbies. I think we all benefitted from the mix, and I got to have a nice chat with an older gentleman about his Walther P38 and his experiences around it.

    The training is good. However, it doesn't prevent someone from having an idiot attack.
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

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    BTW does anyone have any proof that a permit serves any useful purpose?
    No proof. The generations of no permit carry in Vermont has been uneventful. Their murder rate per 100,000 people per year frequently dips below that of UK.

    Opinion. I found the four-hour class on self defense law eye-opening. As a lawyer on a law blog pointed out recently, back in law school he got one hour on self-defense law; everything he was told in law school was wrong in the real world. The Tennessee SD law class includes a videotape from the state AG explaining basics, and how recent cases were decided.

    The gun safety class and qualification at the firing range was redundant for me, but for someone acquiring a gun for the first time for self defense, it is better than nothing.

    Folks serious about self defense spend hundreds is not thousands on personal training.
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    Arizona went to Constitutional Carry September of 2010, and I haven't seen any massive reporting of an increase of deaths/shootings/little old ladies speeding on Saturday night that has been/can be attributed to the law change.
    As for training, I will say simply - I wear body armor to my Dept qualification. Seriously.
    If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?

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    A better argument against CCW

    It would b e far better to think of what the impact or supporting CCW is?

    What is CCW in fact? Is it not gun control?

    Does CCW not create elitists who think they are better than others and are willing to protect their status no matter what government asks? ie background checks, more training, certification requirements?

    What are firearm owners thinking when they ask for CCW laws? What will they do when they accept those laws as valid and justified as they do now?

    CCW supporters have just opened a back door for gun control. There are many ways of reducing firearm ownership. Cost and inconvenience are but two of them.

    Already we have elitism rearing its ugly head in demanding others be trained or the training is not good enough. Can a single one of those elitists show any training is needed? Verifiable proof required.

    From a psychological point of view acceptance of CCW is a disaster as it is acceptance of gun control. This fight will be lost because nobody thinks of theses things and applies that thought to seeing the dangers.

    I'll ask but one question. Who fights what they accept?

    Is anyone expecting firearm owners to fight for a gun, for CCW, for a "Constitutional right" which firearm organisations value so little and allow to be modified by laws which they do nothing about?

    So why the time wasting debate over the validity of what is pure BS that has the potential to derail and side track any real opposition?

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    ^ You write like the alternative to a CCW was unlicensed right-to-carry. Before 1986 and the start of the modern shall-issue handgun carry permit movement, R-T-C, the alternative to CCW in most states was no legal carry allowed at all.

    Before the Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit (THCP), you could not legally carry a weapon for defense outside your home or your business. The "going armed" law was a ban on going armed in public for offense or defense; you could get a "special deputy badge" from the county sheriff but for many of Tennessee's 95 counties it was made from Unobtainium, a very rare metal often unavailable.

    The shall issue THCP administered at the state level like a drivers license (you apply, meet qualifications, permit shall be issued), is made of plastic with photo and hologram, already available for driver's license production, no Unobtainium shortage.

    The R-T-C movement represents less restriction on carrying guns for self-defense than existed before.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post
    A friend challenged me that carry permit holders were untrained and dangerous. I thought that permit holders were more law abiding than LEOs. I can't find that statistic. Was I dreaming?

    I know where to find the statistic that permit holders shoot fewer bystanders than do the police. I can find the statistic that permit holders are more law abiding than the average citizen. How do permit holders compare to LEOs?
    Oh, please.


    Here we go again. This gets rather tiring, folks.
    Hiding in plain sight....

  24. #24
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    There is a point of diminishing returns in the effectiveness of scrutinizing the police, in order to demonstrate, by comparison, our own 'safe habits' or 'lawfulness'. It is true that some flavor of anti-gunners believe that police are the only folks qualified to carry firearms, and that this 'cultural presumption' drives both the ignorance and apathy advantageous to the former's cause.

    I'm just saying we need not spend too much time disproving the 'safe habits' and 'lawfulness' of the latter, in order to prove ours. The State statistics on CFP-holders can, and should, stand on their own.

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    Smile

    thesecond:

    Unfortunately, it seems like more people (if they're paying any attention at all) are inclined to believe the "only LEO's are qualified" argument than are willing to look at the stats, and don't understand things like "LEO's often only shoot (let alone "qualify") once or twice a year, and tend to only do that when they're paid to....

    Not to mention the "uninformed" voters who'd vote for Adolph Hitler if endorsed by certain media "leaders"....

    I shoot once a week, maybe 45 to 50 weeks a year. Not all that many LEO's are doing that.

    Regards,
    Stu

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