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Thread: Bigfatdave and Loosedhorse's Voluntary Safety Program and Promotion Initiative Thread

  1. #1
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    Bigfatdave and Loosedhorse's Voluntary Safety Program and Promotion Initiative Thread

    Recently, Loosedhorse started a thread relating the story of a 5-year who shot his sister with a rifle that was left chambered, loaded, and unsecured in the children's bedroom.

    Such a tragedy has proven not an uncommon occurrence, despite the fact that members at all gun-forums generally exhibit a very high degree of awareness of firearms-safety issues. And, however tragic, there is no doubt that members of gunforums have long been sensitive to the further vilification of gun owners as well as the promotion of ‘legislative solutions’, all conceived and promoted in the wake of tragedies associated with firearms.

    Nevertheless, Loosedhorse, correctly, raised the issue of whether more active voluntary safety education efforts may help reduce ‘accidental’ (or even, negligent, and criminally negligent) firearms-related tragedies. I always agreed, as I believe tragedy needn’t be required to inspire, and I’ve no objection to the general proposition that, ‘more is better’.

    Meanwhile, I’ve seen this ‘competition’ for the ‘time and intellectual resources’ of fellow members, in the same way that one may view the ‘competition’ taking place in this U.S. Congress, which seeks solutions to the ‘problems’ associated with, among other things, ‘firearms’ and ‘health’ and ‘safety’. That is, there always remains the possibility that while I agree to do my part in compromise (i.e., ‘more’ of that which another believes to be the solution), the one with whom I negotiate could very well refuse to do his part (i.e., ‘any’ of that which I believe to be the solution). Forum members, as well as congressmen, are well aware of all of the results to which ‘concessions’ of time and effort may, or may not, lead. Though ‘vision’, for some of us, may be limitless …. time, or ‘capital’, for all of us, can fairly be characterized as finite.

    I take responsibility and apologize to all, for some of the detour (but maintain concerns stated in that thread).

    In any event, with the benefit of ‘text’, with the meeting point of an internet forum, and with proper placement in the appropriate ‘arena’, our ‘time’ (and ‘capital’), STILL, may be better preserved, provided time and effort are efficiently allocated, the subject issues are reasonably ordered and focused, threads are placed in an appropriate sub-forum and members are reasonably disciplined in their common pursuit.

    This thread has been posted to let Loosedhorse, Bigfatdave, and other members continue discussion of specific ‘voluntary safety proposals’ without the ethical, political, or legal arguments. And such a thread would be most appropriate, here, in the “Activism Discussion and Planning” section within the “Activism” sub-forum.

    This thread proceeds on the premise that ‘more safety outreach’ is better, and that discussion of voluntary firearms safety proposals needn’t be saddled with discussion of ‘certain retribution from the public’ nor of ‘hostage-esque behavior’, with discussion of whether or not a safety program or media project must be coupled with other pro-2A/RKBA ‘solutions’, or with discussion of whether alternative solutions already existing, or those which may be better implemented or initiated, would obviate the need for discussion of any ‘additional safety proposals’.

    If you wouldn’t have interest in participating in such a program, then you shouldn’t participate in this thread. (Likewise, if ‘more tangible’ member ‘activity’ is the purpose of the thread, for future reference, it shouldn’t be posted in “General”.) Ideas in the proper marketplace. All of the above-mentioned subjects, and more, would be for new threads, best discussed in one of the other sub-forums (e.g., legal or general or ethics of liberty).

    So, here’s a re-listing of a number of potential safety education ‘proposals’, with some added:

    (1) targeted local firearms safety education programs, independently founded

    (2) targeted local media, whether billboard, flyers, temporary kiosks, event-planning

    (3) funding and foundation of organizations directed specifically toward ‘safety education’

    (4) coordination with local civic groups which have not heretofore included self-defense and firearms safety as within the province of their community responsibilities

    (5) taking a page from ‘tragedy entrepreneurs’, using incidents of ‘firearms accidents’ to establish web-charity sites associated with the family, the funds of which will be appropriated to ‘firearms safety education programs’ and/or media efforts to encourage participation in voluntary safety programs

    Good luck.
    Last edited by thesecond; May 17th, 2013 at 05:59 AM.

  2. #2
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    #2 and #4 seem most effective to me, possibly under a group as in #3

    I genuinely believe that #1 is not going to reach the ... ... ... We'll call them "at-risk" to be polite ... ...
    ... Back on track, #1 won't reach the at-risk segment of the population.

    #5 is outside my area of expertise, it might work, or it might give "us" the ability to say "we told you so" after the next act of dangerous ignorance.
    DON'T PANIC

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesecond View Post
    Recently, Loosedhorse started a thread relating the story of a 5-year who shot his sister with a rifle that was left chambered, loaded, and unsecured in the children's bedroom.

    Such a tragedy has proven not an uncommon occurrence, despite the fact that members at all gun-forums generally exhibit a very high degree of awareness of firearms-safety issues. And, however tragic, there is no doubt that members of gunforums have long been sensitive to the further vilification of gun owners as well as the promotion of ‘legislative solutions’, all conceived and promoted in the wake of tragedies associated with firearms.

    Nevertheless, Loosedhorse, correctly, raised the issue of whether more active voluntary safety education efforts may help reduce ‘accidental’ (or even, negligent, and criminally negligent) firearms-related tragedies. I always agreed, as I believe tragedy needn’t be required to inspire, and I’ve no objection to the general proposition that, ‘more is better’.

    Meanwhile, I’ve seen this ‘competition’ for the ‘time and intellectual resources’ of fellow members, in the same way that one may view the ‘competition’ taking place in this U.S. Congress, which seeks solutions to the ‘problems’ associated with, among other things, ‘firearms’ and ‘health’ and ‘safety’. That is, there always remains the possibility that while I agree to do my part in compromise (i.e., ‘more’ of that which another believes to be the solution), the one with whom I negotiate could very well refuse to do his part (i.e., ‘any’ of that which I believe to be the solution). Forum members, as well as congressmen, are well aware of all of the results to which ‘concessions’ of time and effort may, or may not, lead. Though ‘vision’, for some of us, may be limitless …. time, or ‘capital’, for all of us, can fairly be characterized as finite.

    I take responsibility and apologize to all, for some of the detour (but maintain concerns stated in that thread).

    In any event, with the benefit of ‘text’, with the meeting point of an internet forum, and with proper placement in the appropriate ‘arena’, our ‘time’ (and ‘capital’), STILL, may be better preserved, provided time and effort are efficiently allocated, the subject issues are reasonably ordered and focused, threads are placed in an appropriate sub-forum and members are reasonably disciplined in their common pursuit.

    This thread has been posted to let Loosedhorse, Bigfatdave, and other members continue discussion of specific ‘voluntary safety proposals’ without the ethical, political, or legal arguments. And such a thread would be most appropriate, here, in the “Activism Discussion and Planning” section within the “Activism” sub-forum.

    This thread proceeds on the premise that ‘more safety outreach’ is better, and that discussion of voluntary firearms safety proposals needn’t be saddled with discussion of ‘certain retribution from the public’ nor of ‘hostage-esque behavior’, with discussion of whether or not a safety program or media project must be coupled with other pro-2A/RKBA ‘solutions’, or with discussion of whether alternative solutions already existing, or those which may be better implemented or initiated, would obviate the need for discussion of any ‘additional safety proposals’.

    If you wouldn’t have interest in participating in such a program, then you shouldn’t participate in this thread. (Likewise, if ‘more tangible’ member ‘activity’ is the purpose of the thread, for future reference, it shouldn’t be posted in “General”.) Ideas in the proper marketplace. All of the above-mentioned subjects, and more, would be for new threads, best discussed in one of the other sub-forums (e.g., legal or general or ethics of liberty).

    So, here’s a re-listing of a number of potential safety education ‘proposals’, with some added:

    (1) targeted local firearms safety education programs, independently founded

    (2) targeted local media, whether billboard, flyers, temporary kiosks, event-planning

    (3) funding and foundation of organizations directed specifically toward ‘safety education’

    (4) coordination with local civic groups which have not heretofore included self-defense and firearms safety as within the province of their community responsibilities

    (5) taking a page from ‘tragedy entrepreneurs’, using incidents of ‘firearms accidents’ to establish web-charity sites associated with the family, the funds of which will be appropriated to ‘firearms safety education programs’ and/or media efforts to encourage participation in voluntary safety programs

    Good luck.
    People are going to use tools safely or they are not. All the focus groups, public service announcements or teeth gnashing is not going to put anyone in one to be the other. As for #5, unless the man at the moment as a personal involvement of some sort what happens to others is not going to make an impact.

    Case in point, my dear brother was said to be the world's most idiotic driver until his parked trucked rolled into the Iroquois river. Afterwards the number of chances he took dropped drastically. Another individual used to sleep with a handgun in battery with the safety off under his pillow until one night he managed to discharge it. After that rude awakening he not only commits universal firearms safety but is committed to firearms safety.

    Programs make the participants 'feel' better but they do not negate the old saying - "experience prevents you from doing stupid things. Experience is gained from doing something stupid. "

    The best we can hope for in cars, matches, fireworks, gasoline or firearms is that the man of the moment doesn't put his eye out in the process of learning he needs to put a button on the foil.

  4. #4
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    Please excuse a brief excursion into a parallel world, water safety.

    I grew up in a harbor town on Lake Erie. All life revolved around the river and the lake.

    Every summer there was some tragedy in the area, and most winters too (snowmobiles through the ice being a popular misadventure).

    I saw two useful behaviors that came out of that environment:

    1) A number of people became models and mentors. Things like requiring life jackets for certain activities, always counting the life jackets before leaving the dock, promoting boating safety classes to all their friends and acquaintances, giving little impromptu lessons and lectures whenever an opportunity popped up.

    2) Many responsible people used any tragedy as a preaching point -- "don't be like so and so, he didn't follow xxx rule and look what happened."

    I still remember many of those people and quite a few of those incidents. I am not sure exactly how to translate that into this arena, but I am a big believer in "what worked before".
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

  5. #5
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    If these voluntary programs would work then the same programs enforced by the federal government through laws would work. But they don't work and they won't work in today's political environment.

    What we need is, first, to restore the idea of free men taking care of themselves and being responsible for their own lives - both for their actions and for protecting their lives. Then we need a culture of gun ownership many times more than what we have now. When guns become, once again, a part of every-day life for every-day citizens, then it will be obvious that NRA sponsored training would be part of every school kid's curriculum.

    In other words, we just need to change the culture - or at least we need to do that first.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." - Wayne LaPierre
    Republicans: The Other Democratic Party

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOKShooter View Post
    What we need is, first, to restore the idea of free men taking care of themselves and being responsible for their own lives - both for their actions and for protecting their lives.
    This is right on the money. Our problem today is we think somebody else should do it and could not be bothered ourselves. We have no value or appreciation of our rights. We take no responsibility for ourselves. We have no idea of why we need those rights. Our rights have been replace by material things or they are controlled by somebody else.

    Then we need a culture of gun ownership many times more than what we have now. When guns become, once again, a part of every-day life for every-day citizens, then it will be obvious that NRA sponsored training would be part of every school kid's curriculum.

    In other words, we just need to change the culture - or at least we need to do that first.
    And this is a perfect example of that. Are guns our rights? If you have a gun you are OK? No need to do anything else? Well maybe training and practice and learn some safety rules...

    I think we are making one huge big mistake in making guns the god we worship instead if PROTECTING OUR RIGHT TO OWN ONE.

    Consider the psychological difference in protecting guns as against our right to own one. Consider the difference in promoting gun sales, services, membership, safety, practice rather than educating firearm owners into appreciating and protecting their rights from all incursions.

    Then you will have some idea of why we are facing the onslaught of gun control instead of driving it into the sea.

    We are giving people fish, instead of teaching them to fish.

    When was the last time you heard anyone say PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS?

    Not constitutional rights, not 2nd, not anything but YOUR RIGHTS. We own them, we had better look after them. When will we start?

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