Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: A new holster design...a bit on the radical side...

  1. #1
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688

    A new holster design...a bit on the radical side...

    I've been experimenting with a new type of leather OWB crossdraw that's unusually high-ride. I can show you pics here of the one I'm using for my 4.68" barrel New Vaquero - note how the entire cylinder is up over the beltline:





    Here's a close-up of the holster:



    Here's a version of the same concept for a friend's Ruger P85-Mk2, showing it "unbuckled":



    ...and worn:



    If it's not obvious yet, this setup "grabs" the belt on each side and then when the double-ring buckle is connected to the tapered tension strap, you can crank down on it and suck the holster down onto the belt.

    That means the whole rig can be taken on and off the belt without taking the belt off, and it means the tension down onto the belt is adjustable. Because of the double-ring buckle, infinitely adjustable. The strap running through the buckle is tapered to resist slowly pulling out under tension - once it's set, it's good all day.

    The goal was something concealable under a standard-length jacket as in the first pic above. I found that once I went this high-ride, it was actually uncomfortable carried strong-side. The only way to make it work was to wear it significantly behind the hip and at that point, wearing it open-carry was unsafe - too easy to grab. Plus it's impossible to get to off-hand back there.

    Once I got it this high, and was able to lock the angle down to whatever I wanted, crossdraw became the better solution. Dual-hand access, excellent protection against snatching, damned fast access. And it works just as well seated as standing.

    And it works regardless of belt width - buckling it down adjusts the rig to the belt. For very wide belts I might need a longer tension strap but that's a replaceable part so who cares?

    Has anybody heard of a similar setup where the holster "grabs the belt and clings onto it" like this? It feels like it's the highest, tightest rig possible and still remain OWB - which means it's still a lot less lumpy than IWB...

    Oh yeah. One more thing. The "extra skirt" area where the eagle concho is on the P85 rig or the extra skirt below the yin-yang on mine is functional. It helps keep the butt of the gun in and tight. It's flexible because while it's stitched, there's no glue used...that whole skirt area has some "give" to it.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  2. #2
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-31-08
    Location
    Illiana
    Posts
    5,655
    Interesting, Jim...... what is the tension strap made of?
    Paul
    People have some respect for the complexity of technology. But almost every ignorant fool thinks he understands money and economics.

  3. #3
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    550 Paracord where it goes under the belt and through the body of the holster (concealed under the same "top panel" that the yin-yang is poking through). It then connects to the rings on one end and a leather tapered tension strap on the other.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  4. #4
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    09-20-04
    Location
    910 / 813 / 561
    Posts
    796
    Definitely a cool design. Is the 550 Paracord going to screw up the belt leather when it rubs?

  5. #5
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    There's no evidence of "sawing" whatsoever. Once tensioned down good it doesn't tend to move much. A little as I sit down or get up, or get on my bike.

    I'm looking for a good alternative cord though, 550 in relation to the rest of the rig looks like crap.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  6. #6
    Member  
    Join Date
    09-07-07
    Posts
    52
    Ingenious method of holster attachment. I think I may play with that idea if you don't mind. I've been wanting to make something crossdraw, but I wasn't sure of a way to make the holster tight against the body. I wonder if it'll work on a kydex holster. 550 cord wouldn't look out of place on that.
    Mine: S&W 908.....Wife's: Ruger SP101 3"
    ------Kahr PM9...............Sig P239 (it's her's now)
    ------Norinco 213...........Charter Arms Undercover
    Blog: http://hiddendefense.blogspot.com/

  7. #7
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    By all means. And no I don't mind - on the Flickr pages hosting the pics I mentioned releasing the concept under the Creative Commons Non-Commercial Attribution license 2.5 .

    Which means go for it, have fun, if you post pics mention where you got the idea (posting a link to this thread would do). If you make 'em for sale, talk to me about very mild licensing fees.

    Main reason for this is, if I "go pro" (and I'm getting to a point where it's conceivable) I want "prior art" established so somebody can't bar ME. I've never, ever heard of a setup that grabs the belt and clings like this. The closest I've ever seen is an old Bill Grover design, which was part of my "mental starting point":

    http://www.tedblockerholsters.com/pr...D157928572DFB9

    Another thing. It didn't match the "look" I was going for, but another way to do the cross-strap buckle is, instead of the doublerings and tapered leather strap (which would be vital with a doublering buckle) you could in theory use flat nylon strap and a high-grade plastic "snap buckle" adjusted to fit. But it would have to be a VERY high quality snap-buckle.

    There's likely other methods of doing that buckle, other cord types. More experimentation is needed. The doublering setup really matched the "sorta old west flavor" I'm trying for on my rig.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  8. #8
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    This pic shows just how tight it can get, if I move it a little further forward of my hipline:



    For a rig that's also this HIGH, with the whole cylinder of the gun above the beltline, I think that's an achievement right there. I'm almost bordering on the draw location and angle of a low shoulder rig (a "Huckleberry" type) versus a belt rig...or getting near Wild Bill's sash-mount location.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  9. #9
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    11-18-09
    Posts
    314
    Interesting idea. I prefer OWB holsters too. And crossdraw does have its merits especially when sitting down.

    Off topic, Jim have you tried just a regular ghost-ring sight on your Vaquero instead of the full length tube?
    The End

  10. #10
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    Yup, what I now call the "Mk1" version:





    I tried it with and without the fiber optic core, I tried enlarging the front by putting a small nut on it (and then had problems painting the nut black), I had glinting problems galore on the front sight and the draw time was sometimes horrendous as that huge front hung up.

    On a real Hexsite, the rear aperture is smaller and hence the post front sight doesn't need to be as tall. Tim eliminated glinting on the front by using a steel core with a polymer coating on top. Lacking such materials, I just couldn't get glinting under control - until I went to the full length tube.

    That solved both glinting and draw time/smoothness. It was the real breakthough I needed. It's NOT needed with a real Hexsite, which is compatible with standard holsters.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  11. #11
    Administrator   
    Join Date
    07-09-07
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    3,574
    That holster design is cool. I like it.

    Anyone make them for sale?
    "Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

    Home | Forum | Blog | ❏ PicPaste | ImgDump |☎ Nalioth

  12. #12
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    11-18-09
    Posts
    314
    What about doing one like on an MP5 were the ring and blade are together on the front?
    The End

  13. #13
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    Nalioth, so far as I know *nobody* has anything like that commercially. The closest "relative" (and one source for the ideas that went into this) is the Bill Grover I mentioned already.

    It's not that hard to make if you want to do your own.

    Inked, that would work in terms of glint-resistence but the draw time would be bad unless the holster had a full-length kydex channel of some sort to let that massive front sight slide in and out.

    The other problem involves strength. See, by running a full length tube, the whole thing is stabilized end-to-end and the somewhat "iffy" front end mount is reinforced by the much better rear end mount. If they were completely separate, the front end mount would have to be a lot stronger and possibly even bulkier, heavier or made out of better materials I don't have access to right now.

    Right now, the front sight base is like so: see the pics of the "Mk1" setup I just posted? Well that's what's in the core of the current front sight. That front blade has had it's fiber optic core pulled out, it's had a slot cut in the lower face for the tube to wedge into, and it's been re-shaped in putty epoxy. But it's still there. It's not the strongest possible setup! It works only because it's reinforced by the rear end mount (which is a bolt going down through a tapped hole in the topstrap) structurally through the whole tube.

    Plus the holstering requirements were doable with the full tube, and it's smooth on the draw.

    In use I can't actually see the tube - the rear hex aperture actually covers the whole inside of the tube in the eye that's actually sighting down it. Which is my left eye. So...wait, I *do* see a ghost image of the tube floating off to the left, via my still-open right eye, but it's easy to ignore because it's not a sight, it's a tube! So even that works out OK.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  14. #14
    Administrator   
    Join Date
    07-09-07
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    3,574
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim March
    Nalioth, so far as I know *nobody* has anything like that commercially. The closest "relative" (and one source for the ideas that went into this) is the Bill Grover I mentioned already.

    It's not that hard to make if you want to do your own.
    That's the same as me saying that "it's not hard to" build an AK from a kit

    I have no leather working knowledge or tooling, and wouldn't know where to begin.

    If you could provide the URL to your flicker account (here or in PM), I could probably bring it to the attention of one of the smaller holster makers around . .
    "Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

    Home | Forum | Blog | ❏ PicPaste | ImgDump |☎ Nalioth

  15. #15
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    The Flicker picks that tell the tale best:

    Early version for NewVaq:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    Early version for 3" barrel K-Frame S&W:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    Main characteristic of the "early version" is that the lower cross-strap is a separate piece of leather from the piece that goes around the mouth and stiffens the mouth for a one-handed re-holster.

    Late version, Ruger P85-Mk2:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    As you can see, what was a separate cross-strap anchored by conchos at each end is now blended into the same material forming the mouth.

    Late version, Ruger NewVaq - rig is now lined, and a decorative element (yin-yang broach) is embedded between the top and middle layers:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    The "plate of stuff" is a separate invention :

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1jimmar...n/photostream/

    Other notes:

    It should be possible to make the same strap as goes through the double-ring buckle go all the way under the belt, through the body of the holster (above where the yin-yang is on the latest rig, out the other side, back under the belt and up to connect to the double rings. It would have to be a quality piece of leather, but it should be doable. Getting the length right "the first time" would be pretty wild but it's what I'm going to try next when I have better tooling and can do a more "pro-look" rig. Another alternative to the paracord would be three or four braided strands of quality leather lace, "shoe-lace grade" stuff.

    Meanwhile I'd love to see what a pro could do with the same basic concept.

    You might try talking to "Simply Rugged" in Alaska?

    http://www.simplyrugged.com/

    Or any local holstersmith...
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  16. #16
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    Oh, and you can have any holstersmith contact me at:

    1.jim.march@gmail.com - I'll also provide a phone number if you want, there or in PM.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  17. #17
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    11-18-09
    Posts
    314
    I didn't think about material limitations. The holsters look pretty decently made. You may want to apply for a patent once you get it perfected. It would be annoying to have Galco make a million of your idea.
    The End

  18. #18
    Administrator   
    Join Date
    07-09-07
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    3,574
    So, let me ask . .

    Since these appear to be "bucket" type holsters (not form fitted for any particular model), I'd assume that the cinch straps would allow you to have only one and carry any similar-sized handgun in it?
    "Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

    Home | Forum | Blog | ❏ PicPaste | ImgDump |☎ Nalioth

  19. #19
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    Hmmm...yeah, within reason . Esp. with lining, they're on the thick side and the "crank down" feature isn't adding all THAT much tension to keeping them in. In other words...if I have the holster completely off, in my hand, inserting the gun and removing it is easier than it would be if off the belt, but not by a massive amount. A lot of the tension holding the gun in is based on how the holster is trimmed around the gun and then laced tight around it, esp. once I added the liner.

    The versions for guns with DA triggers where the triggerguard is fully covered are cut and sewn (well, laced more like) around the triggerguard as a main tension area.

    The same strap concept would of course work with a more formed/molded "core". It would even work with a kydex core, in theory. The overall look I'm going for right now is "quasi-old-west" (?) and the unmolded core went best with that look.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  20. #20
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    05-15-09
    Location
    upper left corner
    Posts
    2,577
    Nailoth, a while ago I found out something that surprised me. I bought a Bianchi Minimalist holster (#105, I think) for a 1911 and it fit and carried quite well, fairly molded to the gun. One day just for grins, I tried a Colt SAA in it. Much to my surprise, it fit in there perfectly, high ride with the trigger guard exposed. Since then I've carried the SAA in it more often than the 1911.

    I guess I figured that most holsters were pretty well intended for a narrow range of gun dimensions. In this case, two very different handguns, one holster. They're both Colts. Coincidence? I now believe in reintarnation (coming back for another life as a hillbilly).

    Parker

  21. #21
    Administrator   
    Join Date
    07-09-07
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    3,574
    Well, I was just asking, as I wasn't sure how "detailed" the fit was.

    My wonderment was: If I got one for an auto, could I carry service sized
    • Glock
    • SA XD
    • Walther
    • Beretta
    • H&K
    • S&W
    • etc

    in it?
    "Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

    Home | Forum | Blog | ❏ PicPaste | ImgDump |☎ Nalioth

  22. #22
    Member  
    Join Date
    04-04-06
    Posts
    67
    Jim,

    That's very clever. Thanks for posting this, as it's the most interesting thread I've seen in a while.

    I usually carry something either small or slim, but also have a 3" 629 that might be occasionally carried (e.g. hiking trips might be an example). This looks perfect for accommodating the large cylinder of a wheelgun. The adjustability for sit-to-stand is a big plus from a day-to-day practical standpoint.

    No, I have not come across this idea before.

    Offhand, the main suggestion I might offer is to add some rigidity to the straps (in terms of material) and the belt-grabber (just cord now) to keep the holster from rotating without requiring a lot of tension. Not sure if it will make a practical difference as you currently achieve that by tensioning everything. It might allow the belt to be worn slightly more loosely for comfort yet still prevent some rotation.

    If you ever did go pro, I'd definitely try one (unless the price was totally nuts... heck if I needed it I'd probably pay anyway ).

    David

  23. #23
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    Nalioth:

    Right now I'm fitting each holster pretty tight to the gun. Like I said, the main area of tension in the DA designs is around the triggerguard and that's pretty specific to each gun.

    In theory I could do some sort of adjustable tension setup near the triggerguard - say, instead of lacing the leather around it, use screws of variable length with nylon shim washers to set the tension. It *might* work for a variety of typical police-duty-size double-column-mag autos...Glock/Beretta/Sig/etc. Maybe. Needs testing.

    David:

    At post 15 you'll find links to a couple of pics of a rig for a 3" K-Frame S&W. I couldn't get the cylinder on that one quite as high as I could with my Ruger SA, because you have to have something below the beltline to stabilize it . With this rig, a 4" barrel might actually work better, allowing me to bring the cylinder above the belt which is a major aid to both comfort and "body-hugging". Mind you, the 3" K-Frame rig worked very well but the design really shows off it's advantages with bigger pieces. A 3" barrel N-frame might be long enough over a K to start seeing the advantages.

    "Rolling" so far hasn't been a major issue. It'll do that a little bit of course but nothing major.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

  24. #24
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    02-07-07
    Posts
    6,090
    I like it. However I also have a good sized gut. Have you tried one on someone thin? Without the gut in the front the hammer and butt might poke them in the ribs.

  25. #25
    Senior Member  
    Join Date
    12-24-02
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    9,688
    Well the guy with the 3" S&W is fairly thin, but then again that gun doesn't come up as high as the rest.

    IF that is a problem, the good news is somebody skinnier can set it up closer to the side of the body rather than around in front some. With less torso circumference, he can reach around easier. So when he bends over, it can't catch him in the ribs.
    Jim March
    TFL Alumnus
    Equal Rights for CCW Home Page
    http://www.equalccw.com
    Airplane Pictures

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •