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Thread: Taylor Knock Out (TKO) Scale

  1. #1
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    Taylor Knock Out (TKO) Scale

    I thought some people might like this data. I computed it based on the factory released velocity information with their corresponding barrel lengths during their tests.

    Attachment 89470

    The formula used in the John "Pondoro" Taylor Knock Out (TKO) Scale for measuring power of calibers. Developed by an African hunter named John "Pondoro" Taylor. Basically, you multiply diameter of bullet in inches times muzzle velocity times bullet weight in grains divided by 7,000.

    EDIT: Forgot 10mm: Corbon Self-Defense 10mm Auto 165 Grain JHP's TKO is 11.59, impressive


    P.S. the 25 suprised me
    Last edited by mesinge2; October 8th, 2011 at 03:14 PM.
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    It's nice to know that a .380 will knock out an elephant for nearly 5 seconds--does that go up to 10 if you shoot him twice?



    Basically, you multiply diameter of bullet in inches times muzzle velocity times bullet weight in grains divided by 7,000.
    ...and you get what?


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    TKO is a pretty good way of comparing different bullet weights in the same caliber and caliber to caliber.

    It is much better than comparing velocity or energy.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    .700 Nitro's about 254. Yowza.

    Do we know what TKO value correlates with shoulder separation?

    FWIW, Taylor apparently considered the .416 incapable of knocking out an elephant, while the .470 would. He liked the .577 and .600 even better.

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    Oops, forgot 10mm.

    Corbon Self-Defense 10mm Auto 165 Grain JHP's TKO is 11.59, impressive
    "There are three and only three ways to reform our Congressional legislation, familiarly called, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box".
    - Stephen Decatur Miller (May 8, 1787 March 8, 1838)

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    The nub: Taylor probably bagged over 1000 elephant. He used his formula to compare the ability of large-caliber rifles firing "solid" bullets of the day to "stun" elephants if the head-shot missed the brain. He said the numbers provided reasonable agreement with his experience--and who's in a position to argue?

    When applied to any other firearm endeavor, the TKO value has no experience-based or experimental validity as a predictor of performance. It's just a fun number to talk about.

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    Somewhat true but it is a good comparative tool.

    It has more value than energy or velocity because it takes mass of the bullet into consideration.

    People get hungup on energy which has very little value.

    In .308 110 grain, 155 grain and 180 grain have almost the same energy and 110 grain has far more velocity than 180 grain BUT 180 grain is a better performer.

    That's because of momentum and sectional density which is something most people fail to consider.

    It is also valuable when comparing say 180 grain .308 to 338 Win Mag.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Here is the theory...

    http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

    I have read quite a bit about him.

    The more you read the more you see others using similar mentions, but fail to give the reference...Why I like links...



    Regards

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    Thanks, Harley Quinn.

    I read about it in American Handgunner but it was a short article and the mention very brief.
    "There are three and only three ways to reform our Congressional legislation, familiarly called, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box".
    - Stephen Decatur Miller (May 8, 1787 March 8, 1838)

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    If it only works when it is convenient, it isn;'t really science.

    The TKO formula acording to wikipedia:

    (Bullet mass in grains)x (Bullet velocity in feet per second)x )bullet diameter in iinches(calibur)) All divided by 7000

    Lets take a Major League Baseball fastball... 3" in diameter, 5 ounces, and 98 MPH

    437.5 grains per ounce means a baseball weighs 2178.5 grains.
    98mph is 280 FPS
    so 3x280x2178.5=1837500.../7000= 262.5 TKO

    So according to the TKO formula, the fastball has ten times more knockout power than a 44 mag +p+... I'm not buying it. TKO has no scientific basis in the real world. Yeah, you can compare similar rounds based on some arbitrary value, ... but you can get similar results by not dividing anything by 7000, or also multiplying by pi, or adding the calories of this mornings breakfast to your formula...

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    All those numbers go into the slop bucket if you miss. Then the lucky shot to the head with a 25 ACP 35 grain bullet wins over 12 rounds of 230 gr JHP to COM in certain incidences. No matter how you boil it down first you need to hit the target and you need to hit them in that off button point or its going to get real sloppy real quick.

    On the other hand the nerd part of me likes to play with those numbers and it does make a difference in ammo choice for me when all else is equal. I just hate seeing people getting all excited and pinning everything on a number. Theodore Roosevelt had his cops carrying 32 calibers. Not my choice but I bet the bad guys didn't like getting shot by them.
    1934 National Firearms Act, 1968 The Gun Control Act, 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act, 1993 Brady Handguns Violence Act, 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, 1995 Gun Free School Zones Act, NO MORE COMPROMISING

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    It's nice to know that a .380 will knock out an elephant for nearly 5 seconds
    Incorrect on my part.

    What Taylor apparently said ("African Rifles and Cartridges" page 12) was this:
    If you take a frontal head shot at an elephant with a .416 and miss the brain by a small amount, you will probably not knock him out. His hindquarters will give way and he will squat there like a huge hog for few moments, then, if you don’t finish him off at once, he will heave to his feet again, slew around and clear off. But if you had taken the same shot with the .470 and missed the brain by the same amount, that elephant would have been knocked entirely unconscious, and would have remained down for anything up to five minutes - yet the theoretical energies of the rifles are the same.
    Source.

    A .470 has a TKO around 70, the .416 Rigby has 57. So it seems effect/TKO is not a linear function, and no obvious TKO-to-seconds of unconsciousness conversion factors was ever implied by Taylor. Rather, around 70 good for elephant, around 57 not so good. Since that performance difference was not reflected by the two cartridges' near-equal energies, he invented his own scale.

    My bad.

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    Wonder what this guy would think about a magicians, oops I mean mathmaticians theories on Elephant hunting?

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm

    a quick search on John "Pondoro" Taylor brings up alot of pages full of glitz and opinions. Looks more like he was trying to prove something rather than report what works.

    After reading for a minute I see these two like two pistoleros in a good talk about 9mm and 45. Some will think a poor hit with a 45 is better than a good hit with a 9mm. The 45 guy makes a math formula to prove it. While the 9mm guy has some experience to base his choice on.

    Two and a half dozen to one or the other divided by 7,000 is what I say.

    The more one reads into the TKO, the more silly it gets. Infact, this year I will put away the guns and carry a good ole baseball. The TKO is much higher and in theory and on paper will be far superior to any nitro propelled sleek metal projectile I could use. I am so glad math could open my eyes to my wrong doing all my life........

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    When watching Tiger Woods hit off the tee I have often wondered the TKO of that projectile at about 50 yards

    The fact is Taylor was a stone killer if nothing else And had a lot of stories to go with his trophies

    Opinions are just that...Math has put vehicles in space and kept them there...

    Evolution or creation now that is a real good topic to read on

    Regards

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    Funny that Taylor's KO became famous.

    It's essentially the bullet's momentum times the bullet's diameter. The units for bullet mass, speed and the 7000 are irrelevant.

    What is that? That has no physical meaning.

    If I were in a heuristic mood, diameter squared feels better, but still ...

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